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Prosecutability of Ai's past activities

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When thinking about Ai's potential future, I've been wondering one thing: Could she be prosecuted for her past affiliation with the Black Organization? IMO, the fact that she created that drug which was used by the BO to kill people is probably more than enough grounds to try her at least for many counts of accessory to murder (one count for each instance the drug was used to kill people).

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The argument I was trying to make on a recent podcast is that, who knows how much of the stuff she did was REALLY against her will? She hides stuff from Shinichi all the time. It absolutely wouldn't surprise me if at one point her heart was dark enough that she could've done things to people and felt no remorse, IE. testing dangerous chemicals on un-willing test subjects.

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BTW, for those of you who say she'll stay in hiding: I believe that if any high ranking BO members were captured alive (which may very well happen), they will almost certainly give away information on their "traitor," and after the police learn about what Conan/Shinichi went through, it shouldn't take much effort for them to find out Ai's true background.

Perhaps she can get out by a cause of insanity? tongue.gif

Really, she could be prosecuted, tried, and convicted. Of murders, I'm not so sure. icon_neutral.gif

I said "accessory to murder" which is different from murder alone. My point is that she created the drug which was then used by the organization to kill people, which IMO amounts to accessory to murder (by definition, an accessory is a person who assists in the commission of a crime, but who does not actually participate in the commission of the crime as a joint principal).

she was forced to so no

While it may be true that she was "forced," that does not mean she is legally exempt from prosecution.

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she was forced to so no

The pressure was there, but I think she did the research out of her own genuine interest and desire. I think what Carpetcrawler said about "if at one point her heart was dark enough that she could've done things to people and felt no remorse, IE. testing dangerous chemicals on un-willing test subjects." was probably true. She grew up in the Organization, so it makes sense that her perspective was warped because she was groomed for this from a very young age. She was very close to testing the APTX on Numabuchi.

I definitely think she could be prosecuted. Murder is unlikely as she never directly tested her poison on anyone (although she was very close to doing so with Numabuchi), but being an accomplice/accessory to crimes yes.

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The pressure was there, but I think she did the research out of her own genuine interest and desire. I think what Carpetcrawler said about "if at one point her heart was dark enough that she could've done things to people and felt no remorse, IE. testing dangerous chemicals on un-willing test subjects." was probably true. She grew up in the Organization, so it makes sense that her perspective was warped because she was groomed for this from a very young age. She was very close to testing the APTX on Numabuchi.

I definitely think she could be prosecuted. Murder is unlikely as she never directly tested her poison on anyone (although she was very close to doing so with Numabuchi), but being an accomplice/accessory to crimes yes.

THANK YOU. I was trying to make that point on the podcast, but it fell on pretty much deaf ears. Kind of glad I'm not the only person who has felt this way when it comes to Haibara. She pretty much grew up in the Organization, like you said. She had an older sister who she treated like the most important person in the world, who ALSO was in the Organization. Let's also not forget her PARENTS. Let's also not forget her personality in the first place. Could it be possible that she's killed before for the sake of science in the Organization? Oh yes, absolutely. I don't understand how people can't see this. Am I too cynical?

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she was forced to so no

She could still be prosecuted and convicted. Not sure of the laws in Japan, but in the U.S. if you kill someone even if you had a gun to the back of your head and ordered to you could still be tried, prosecuted, and convicted of murder.

Its really screwed up at how it works......but generally in a case like that a jury probably would decide a not guilty verdict.

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Not sure of the laws in Japan, but in the U.S. if you kill someone even if you had a gun to the back of your head and ordered to you could still be tried, prosecuted, and convicted of murder.

Pretty sure there's a term for where they won't even prosecute you if they learn you were forced to do it (via a gun to your head or something) but the name escapes me. I'll ask my brother who is currently studying criminal justice.

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very true, but who is going to testify against her? i mean the peopl who know what she did (secretly) are the BO and there not going to be trusted

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very true, but who is going to testify against her? i mean the peopl who know what she did (secretly) are the BO and there not going to be trusted

The prosecution can have expert witnesses testify. As long as the police dig up conclusive evidence that demonstrates her involvement, then they have the ability to prosecute.

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This is something I'd never considered before.

She could be charged for creating the drug, like others have said before me.

But another way to think of it, is the inventor of guns liable to be prosecuted and convicted? Just because some people use it to kill others? Is creating the tool for murder a crime in itself?

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But another way to think of it, is the inventor of guns liable to be prosecuted and convicted? Just because some people use it to kill others? Is creating the tool for murder a crime in itself?

That argument is fallacious because guns (depending on the country) can be legally used for hunting, sport, or self protection. Shiho's poison (in its current state) is only useful as a murder weapon. Making a poison unintentionally when researching new pharmaceutical compounds is not illegal (otherwise the medicine industry would be in trouble from all the failed anti-cancer drugs). The difference is though that regardless of the original intent, it was tested as a poison to see how effective it would be, refined, and manufactured into capsules dosed to kill humans, and it was used to murder people. I assume Shiho did the testing, refining, and dosing which makes her accomplice to murder.

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That argument is fallacious because guns (depending on the country) can be legally used for hunting, sport, or self protection. Shiho's poison (in its current state) is only useful as a murder weapon. Making a poison unintentionally when researching new pharmaceutical compounds is not illegal (otherwise the medicine industry would be in trouble from all the failed anti-cancer drugs). The difference is though that regardless of the original intent, it was tested as a poison to see how effective it would be, refined, and manufactured into capsules dosed to kill humans, and it was used to murder people. I assume Shiho did the testing, defining, and dosing which makes her accomplice to murder.

Hmm...And I suppose any paperwork would show that the drug wasn't meant for something like euthanasia or anything like that, huh? Oh well, coercion/insanity plea it is. Even though I'm fairly sure she did do it out of interest, rather than being coerced by the Org. If I remember correctly, she has spoken of the formula in an admiring tone. Possibly when she first explained it to Conan, but I'm not sure.

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That argument is fallacious because guns (depending on the country) can be legally used for hunting, sport, or self protection. Shiho's poison (in its current state) is only useful as a murder weapon. Making a poison unintentionally when researching new pharmaceutical compounds is not illegal (otherwise the medicine industry would be in trouble from all the failed anti-cancer drugs). The difference is though that regardless of the original intent, it was tested as a poison to see how effective it would be, refined, and manufactured into capsules dosed to kill humans, and it was used to murder people. I assume Shiho did the testing, defining, and dosing which makes her accomplice to murder.

Amen to that. It's actually kinda scary when you think about it, though. :shock:

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Going under the premise that the authorities found out about her true id, and past actions, would she receive any leniency for helping to bring down the Organization?

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Going under the premise that the authorities found out about her true id, and past actions, would she receive any leniency for helping to bring down the Organization?

Depends on how severe her actions were. She could've done some truly horrible work afterall...

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That argument is fallacious because guns (depending on the country) can be legally used for hunting, sport, or self protection. Shiho's poison (in its current state) is only useful as a murder weapon. Making a poison unintentionally when researching new pharmaceutical compounds is not illegal (otherwise the medicine industry would be in trouble from all the failed anti-cancer drugs). The difference is though that regardless of the original intent, it was tested as a poison to see how effective it would be, refined, and manufactured into capsules dosed to kill humans, and it was used to murder people. I assume Shiho did the testing, refining, and dosing which makes her accomplice to murder.

As much as that is true, we don't know what is on paper. A smart lawyer would say that she was making another drug for a different purpose and she mistakenly made a poison that was perverted by the organization that she was basically forced to join, citing the consequences of leaving (murder of her sister), and that she only continued to work for the org to protect her sister which failed, at which point she tried to kill herself with the very poison they forced her to test after mistakenly stumbled upon. Not only that, but she has already left. She doesn't tell Kudo things, in all likelihood, to protect him from an organization that he has no hopes of beating at the current time.

Also... There are other purposes for trying to incite apoptosis... Hell, she could make the argument that she was trying to make a new cancer drug to target growths and incite apoptosis. When the org found out that a non-targeted version could kill, they forced her to concentrate on that.

Not only that... But scientists doing research are rarely if ever tried for murder. If that were true then the scientists who worked on WMDs would have been arrested for war crimes. Or the scientists who weaponized certain diseases would have been arrested for murder as well. Their intent was surely to kill, and in mass numbers through biological warfare. There are reasons why they aren't. Because doing research for knowledge can be taken several ways. Unless the scientists actively did trials on humans (which they didn't as far as I know, but they were involved in the investigation of whether or not it killed Kudo, but that could have been theoretically out of their control and forced to investigate), all they can prove is that the scientists were creating a new powerful rat poison.

Combine all of that with the fact that she defected and became an enemy of the BO, the FBI or any other agency would be more likely to cut her a deal in exchange for her testimony against the BO.

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Not only that... But scientists doing research are rarely if ever tried for murder.

http://www.bmj.com/content/313/7070/1413.full

Unless the scientists actively did trials on humans (which they didn't as far as I know, but they were involved in the investigation of whether or not it killed Kudo, but that could have been theoretically out of their control and forced to investigate), all they can prove is that the scientists were creating a new powerful rat poison.

The Organization generated documents pertaining to the testing of APTX on Numabuchi Kiichiro. Presumably, there are also documents relating to how Shiho decided how much would be enough to kill a person and the creation of pills with a human lethal dose. Courts aren't stupid; if prosecutors can come up with any sort of even circumstantial evidence that the drug was going to be used on a human, they'll use it in trial. The existence of human lethal doses in capsules for people in an organization of assassins in more than enough proof for the court to consider. Add the paperwork in and you have a good case.

Combine all of that with the fact that she defected and became an enemy of the BO, the FBI or any other agency would be more likely to cut her a deal in exchange for her testimony against the BO.

I believe she would likely receive a plea bargain for being forced to develop the drug, defecting, and providing information, but legally I believe she was still in the wrong and if you were to consider a hypothetical scenario that she was arrested while still in the Organization before she boycotted, she would be prosecuted.

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http://www.bmj.com/content/313/7070/1413.full

The Organization generated documents pertaining to the testing of APTX on Numabuchi Kiichiro. Presumably, there are also documents relating to how Shiho decided how much would be enough to kill a person and the creation of pills with a human lethal dose. Courts aren't stupid; if prosecutors can come up with any sort of even circumstantial evidence that the drug was going to be used on a human, they'll use it in trial. The existence of human lethal doses in capsules for people in an organization of assassins in more than enough proof for the court to consider. Add the paperwork in and you have a good case.

I believe she would likely receive a plea bargain for being forced to develop the drug, defecting, and providing information, but legally I believe she was still in the wrong and if you were to consider a hypothetical scenario that she was arrested while still in the Organization before she boycotted, she would be prosecuted.

I'd like to make note that the medical practitioners and scientists who stood trial in that link did completely unethical practices for the Third Reich (or other tyrannical rule). Most of their research was done in concentration camps on prisoners of war, Jews, and other live subjects. Not only that but in mass numbers, much of the testing providing astounding results at the price of torturing prisoners. So those trials and the one that would be brought up against Shiho would be completely different. She never tested on actual humans, nor did she herself force the drug to be tested on any human. In fact...

Although it had antecedents in American and German medical ethics,6 7 8 this 10 point statement marked a threshold definition for the duties and responsibilities involved in conducting research on human subjects. It was written to apply to subjects of experimental or non-therapeutic research—where the information sought will not directly benefit the subjects of the research.
And they would not try her for that because she only tested on mice. (and I highly doubt that the org would state the intent of the research on paper to be "murder" though that would be the true intent) The only people who "tested" on live humans were the murderous agents. And their actions cannot be held accountable by Shiho. She merely did the calculations, which I stated were necessary drug data. Dosages to be effective on different body types, and sizes must be done, including how much would be lethal. When you call a poison control center, they always ask you what drug or poison was consumed, and in what amount... One amount might need a stomach pump and an antidote, and another may only require induced vomiting or to flush the body with copious amounts of water.

Not only that... but this is the same organization that could destroy and change documents. Likely most evidence of any research done like that would be destroyed when compromised. We already know that Night Baron destroys entire hard drives if accessed by unauthorized personnel. That would not bode well for circumstantial evidence, but it would hardly be hard evidence because it is likely that she never set it up. She could have known about it but it is more likely that programmers would get the heat for destruction of evidence rather than Shiho who cut ties with them.

The only person she would be implicated in is the person you stated, which she only received the file for and never had contact with personally. Likely the person was under the care of someone else, and that too could have been spun in a different way. I do not recall who gave him the drug, but likely the defense would state that he had already ingested the drug and needed to be monitored because at the time no antidote existed. That happens in hospitals all the time. A drug that has no antidote for overdose is ingested, all that can be done is to monitor and make the patient comfortable while tracking the condition of his deterioration for documentation (if stomach pumping is not a viable option anymore). The courts couldn't do anything because she had NO SAY in the administering of the drug to him. She was only told to oversee the drug's progression in his body.

Again, there are labs that are currently manufacturing DEADLY VIRUSES. If those viruses happen to be stolen (or sold by someone within the lab) to a terrorist group, the entire lab would not be implicated in trying to kill or any ethical crimes. Research is being done on Apoptosis and other molecular biological systems to induce or repress them, mostly to fight cancer. If any one of them was weaponized, it would not be the fault of the researcher unless they did something specifically unethical, like say... test on humans directly against their will.

Unless she can be directly implicated in human testing (Other than Shinichi, whom she was making an antidote for, and he was fully consensual for that research, knowing the risks (which Shiho has repeatedly told him), she cannot stand trial for anything on the ethics board. Did she research how lethal the drug is? Sure, but think about all those drug ads that state "death" as a possible side effect. I sure as hell don't see any of those scientists going to jail for their drug killing people, even though someone likely overdosed or it was used to kill depending on how long the drug was on the market for. Simply researching how lethal a new drug is, is not grounds for anything in court.

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