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Antiyonder last won the day on January 4 2017

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  1. And I do get why one would feel that way, but when the choice comes down to keeping it going with a decline in quality (lead character being a gary stu*, love interest being a bore and the main antagonist group really lacking much of a threat) or ending it so that it is enjoyable from beginning to end, I'd think the latter is in the long run for the best.
  2. ^^^I get that, but from time to time, whether it will make any difference or not I tend to look over arguments/comments given and more details tend to come to mind that I like to divulge. And hey, if there are posters who show up in the future who flat out disagree with me, then at least I like to think that at least those in disagreement can understand why I feel so strongly. I think going into such details makes for a more entertaining read than just "Ran should get to find out the truth about Conan, because otherwise the story will be dullsville, dude".
  3. I've touched on this before and even went into more detail in a PM with DCUniverseAficionado last night/this morning. And for the reference this is solely from an in-universe outlook. Now a big part of my problem with singling Ran out of all other people is that she has shown herself to be a capable person such as during the story setting up Okiya's introduction (well at least the part where he moved into the Kudo residence), saving Ai during the Vermouth arc which at least she knows about and even if she couldn't permanently retain her suspicion without laying her cards on the table prematurely, the fact that she was able to conceal it from a prodigy like Conan is no small feat. And unlike the secret keepers she had to do it all without the same level of skills or connections. Best Ran has in her pocket is her lawyer mother. But just as Conan, Ai and Agasa underestimate her, is it possible that a fan like myself overestimates her? Sure. I mean I believe that her potential could easily be increased substantially if she had their trust and even help to improve on her capabilities (like acting lessons from Yukiko). But her flaws do make her likely to compromise their secret. So why do I remain firm on the idea that telling her would basically be a smart move? Because for a trio of people to be that smart, it makes me puzzled that they miss the forest for the trees. Starting with a couple occasions on a smaller scale, look at The Pro Soccer Player Blackmail Case and Holmes Revelation. In both cases Conan has to suspend working on the cases as Ran found out that he as Shinichi is close by despite suggesting that he is out of the area. Had Ran been in the know much early on I don't see much trouble if any. Heck, aside from knowing the stakes, Ran's presence and knowledge means that she could help Conan with the case or just let him focus on the case while she focuses on covering any tracks they might leave. And as much as The Desperate Revival is a favorite of mine and blows The Shirigama/Highway Case out of the water, it shares perhaps a moment that should have been a wake up call for Conan, Ai and Agasa. I mean if you have the option to do so, yes keep anyone from stumbling onto the secret. So what if the choice boils down to telling Ran or letting a bunch of red shirts witnessing the transformation? Sorry but telling Ran, Kogoro, Kazuha, Sato, Takagi would be a lesser setback than a bunch of people who might not be able to be trust flat out or wouldn't be able to comprehend the depth of the situation. I have a hard time believe that Ran wouldn't make the attempt to up the whole concealment if you told her that Conan's secrecy is literally a matter of life or death. Or to put it another way, pretty much all of Teitan High goers found out the secret because Ran alone discovering it would signal the apocalypse. Only reason nothing comes out of it is Heiji being there to tell people to keep Shinichi's presence and because the antidote didn't wear off as feared. Dumb luck is a mild statement. This is brain dead luck at it's finest. Heck, I'll make no pretense that my commentary is fueled with bias, but when I suggest that my favorite story arc would have been averted, I think that demonstrates just how problematic the characters' line of thought is.
  4. To give a cliff notes version here since we're discussing it in more detail elsewhere, I feel a person with good intentions acting badly is potentially worse since: - There can be a slippery slope where a person feels that any form of action is okay if it's for a higher service. Even if Shinichi doesn't use the good intentions card to attempt murder, I think thoughtless behavior from a loved one can arguably hurt more than any physical harm from an outside force to a degree. - At least people are cautious around one who is a transparent jerk. With the well-intentioned kind, others might not recognize jerklike behavior quite so easily. And that said I get it's a Shonen trope for heroes to be flawed and that's good, especially when the story treats the harmful ones as problematic rather than dismissing them. That said, I guess I expect more from Shinichi well because lets look at some other heroes: - Yusuke Urameshi: Saving a kid at the expense of his own life was a start of him becoming such, but considering he started out as a delinquent I can't really be surprised when he's made a jerk move. - Son Goku: Yeah he's not like Yusuke who was a delinquent, but when you really look at the character, he doesn't always do good for the sake of it and will make such moves like showing mercy to Vegeta (before his reform) and Frieza just to have a strong opponent to train for, contrary to the US Dubs trying to make him seem like he's doing so to be noble (i.e. letting Vegeta live to show him there's a better way than hatred). For all the flaws he had in comparison, Shinichi arguably had more of a hero complex to start with, as such I feel it's legit to expect a little more of him than I would his fictional peers and feel it's more problematic when certain flaws aren't intended to be seen as problematic by the narrative.
  5. Ehh. Doesn't mean one should glorify unhealthy behavior, especially when there are one time characters who act in a sleazy manner. Take the guy who appeared in the story where Eri made her debut. The guy who was set to meet up with Sonoko, but Conan thought he was a date for Ran. Said person suggesting that he would take advantage of a naive/innocent woman. And the narrative does rightfully treat him as a jerk. Yet when Conan behaves in such a manner (constant deceitfulness or cock blocking Eisuke), he gets away with it why? Sorry, but being the main character is a ridiculous reason to look the other way, unless said character is going to actually see some development maturity wise.
  6. I'm on the fence with the pairing. If the manga glosses over the problematic nature of Shinichi's deceitfulness, I'd find it hard to feel like they're a couple with a happy/healthy future. Ran doesn't need to go all karate girl on him or giving him death glares, but I want to see any post revelation stories showing signs that she's brokenhearted that the boy she cares about didn't trust her with the truth or respect her enough to let her make decisions that pertain to her. And more importantly, I want Shinichi to respond with some humility and making more of an effort to take chances with her in the trust department.
  7. Frankly I find love triangles need to die down unless they provide legit shake up. Problem with them for the most part is that they: 1. Tend to end with the pairing that's already obvious and as such is more of a diversion that an actual, suspenseful turn. 2. Despite being used as a source of tension, they almost always end very clean with no lingering bits of hard feeling from the ones who lose. And considering how the series is heavily clear with being Pro-Shinichi/Ran, I feel any triangles with them would only come off as cheap tension than strong and compelling drama.
  8. Yet more character/story potential that would come about with change. It just further demonstrates that characterization can make for more padding fodder than being a series killer.
  9. Fair enough I suppose, though the sad thing is given Gosho's handling so far of things I fell even just one post finale arc wouldn't do justice to a story that in-universe may be under a year, but took decades to budge on. "Actually, I think it is more that they're afraid the knowledge will put her in danger, not themselves." Either way the problem still applies. Namely that aside from the Desperate Revival (where Haibara gives Conan 3 choices on how to deal with Ran), the three seem to be 100% sure that Ran finding out will definitely cause problems rather than humoring the possibility that it would be fine to let her in. Ironically enough, there's another reason I like Funvince's Mystery of Conan Edogawa fanfic. In contrast to most "Ran finding out Conan's id" he doesn't try to hide the fact that Conan's actions aren't really quite as noble as the canon narrative tries to pass it off. Yet, that fic actually implements more substantial reason to keep her in the dark beyond "she's a china doll that needs protection": 1. Ironically it wouldn't be Ran that Conan is untrusting of, but rather he doesn't trust himself to keep up the act properly when he's around his friend and is more inclined to let his guard down entirely. 2. Lets say that Ran is brought into the fold and doesn't get plugged because of it. That means she gets to help keep the secret now. In other words, there are going to be times where she may have to make the decision to lie to those she cares about when they may potentially come onto Conan's secret (like say Kogoro). And really something like this really would be good for numerous reasons: - Giving Ran something to do of course. - While mind you I'm still on the fence of Ran forgiving Conan from the get go, I feel a situation like this would help it to feel more understandable. - It also gives a nice duality to Shinichi and Ran's development. One has to learn that secrets can cause more harm sometimes than help, while the other has to work on committing herself a little more towards secrecy. But sadly, I think such an idea is a little too nuanced for Gosho to consider. " Actually, Hattori is the most vocal proponent stating that Conan SHOULD tell Ran. He only keeps the secret because Conan insists on it. He's always pushing for Conan to reveal the truth to Ran. " Of course, and that's why I would assign the quote to him. I mean I still feel that even if Ran proves herself to be a great ally, Conan, Ai and Agasa would still try to play it as their previous attempt at secrecy as a good choice with Heiji getting to point out how stupid it was in the end.
  10. Plus it would in my opinion be hard to view the relationship in a healthy light if he waited until the end. I mean it's Ran's right to forgive him and forgiveness is a good thing, but it shouldn't be given out like pennies or candy Even good people need to face the consequences of their actions in order to be motivated to improve. Additionally? Well the whole problem with the status quo isn't that Conan and company fear the possible outcomes of telling Ran but rather they flat out believe that telling her is a definite suicide. That said one moment that would be a must is Conan, Agasa, Ai and possibly Heiji reflecting on recent developments, including how Ran's been a big help in the long run. Said moment would include Heiji stating something along the lines of "So why were we afraid to let her in on the secret again? I mean you'd think we were part of a 20 year old comic that dreads the concept of change.".
  11. Actually got it last month/year along with 58-60 after some delay. Afterall, nothing makes for a more appropriate reading during the holidays than stories often involving murder:-).
  12. And while this one is arguably less notable, there was also that one chapter story during the Clash of Red & Black storyline which finally (last year I think?) was made into a special. The one focusing on Kogoro.
  13. 1. I feel you need to give my previous post a second even lengthy look if you get the chance. Notably part of the reason I feel that having Conan and Ran's dynamic permanently changing sooner gives it more padding material. Or just to get down to the point: C. I keep hearing that it reduces the potential for new stories to the point that you might as well just end the whole thing. Funny, I see some pretty good stories to help keep things fresh on the side and interesting: Relating to A and B, I don't care to see Ran post-confession hating and snubbing Shinichi/Conan cold turkey. But for the time being there's the coping aspect to the whole thing. Conan needs to accept that he caused Ran more pain than he tried to protect her from, while Ran not hating Conan is still coping with the fact that she was lied to and not trusted. While I don't know how to have it come about, maybe keep this as the status quo with things relaxing between them during the London arc as it would be one of the few stories to be heavily altered, thus allowing that arc to still has something to use for an emotional moment. Maybe near the end when Conan briefly becomes Shinichi, include a nice moment where the two decide to talk for a while and have their first friendly & honest conversation (i.e. talking in person without a voice changing device and no lies between them) since the whole Apotoxin thing happened. Now to give Conan some understanding, while he and those helping him might have gone overboard at one point or another with the whole secrecy thing, keeping it is still important to a point. To illustrate such a detail, there could be several occasions where Ran's newfound involvement has her dealing with the irony that she was once being lied to in the interest of protecting everybody, now she has to contribute to that lie whether the person stumbling onto the secret is an acquaintance, friend or family member. Heck, this could be the reason why she might be willing to grant Conan forgiveness to begin with and help her with having perspective on the matter. Also an example of this, well the Shiragami story. I still find the first two episodes (521-522) to be decent for reasons stated, but I really find that 523 is really the weaker part as it really doesn't even try make the proverbial journey interest. At best it's something we don't see often, but other than treading old grounds without much to offer, meh. Heck, The London arc had that love confession going on afterwards. More on this in a bit. But yeah one major change for Episode 522 is that it could even be the first time where Ran isn't only keeping the secret, but has to help Heiji to actively keep others (Kogoro and Kazuha) out of the loop. What's more is the delicious sense of irony of the two main characters. One has to learn to ease up on the secrecy, while one has to practice to help maintain it. Irony and and opposite developments. So what to do with Episode 523? Well we'd be without Shinichi story which would mean average mystery case right? Wrong. This could be say the first of many future cases since the Ski Lodge Murder Case (way back in Episode 84-85) where Ran steps up to help Conan (and in the case of this ep, Heiji) solve the case. So within the new and improved version of the Shiragami arc for example, Ran not only has to deal with hypocritically being dishonest to her loved ones, but gets to shine by helping to solve a case. Though other characters also help in this regard, but there's more of a chance for Conan to grow out the mentality that he knows what's best and that sometimes he has to trust that Ran's presence will be more of help that hindrance, just as Ran has to occasionally accept that she can't always help Conan in a direct fashion. Ok, one possible consequence is the serious removal of heartbreaking drama. First by removing the wall of secrecy between Conan and Ran, plus the eventual moment where their (currently platonic) relationship starts to mend and become stronger. So we end all potential tension right? Isn't that cute, but it's WRONG!!! (2 Stupid Dog reference:-)) All jerky kidding aside, yeah while the characters aren't perfect in terms of morality, I doubt Ran is going to try to be intimate with a 6 year old boy, even if said boy is her age. In other words, You have a much more compelling bit of tension which doesn't have any easy solutions, unless you consider getting a permanent Apotoxin cure or defeating an Organization is easy. Ran and Conan might have a stronger relationship with the secrets/lies gone, but until Conan is permanently cure and the threat is over, they couldn't really act on their feelings beyond friendship. There's enough tension to be found when two people love each, but are kept apart from each other both literally and figuratively. Just image being together in proximity but having to deny the deeper feelings for one another. Seriously why fallback on lack of communication as a source of drama when a much stronger and challenging one is basically given to you in a pretty box, free of charge? Heck, it's basically a situation where Gosho can definitely have his cake and eat it too. This particular change not only does it actually still allows the series from being able to continue with some basic cases, but it gives him more material to keep things going as you put. Hence why I feel my stance is legit if not factual. If you could take any of these bullet points and provide an example of how they would pose a creative problem I'd welcome it. If I'm factually wrong, I'd at least like to have more speculative perspective on the matter. Otherwise I feel it best sums up my stance that padding the series out isn't a problem, just that maybe he could take more creative chances like actually getting Takagi and Sato together, while also ending the triangle with them and Shiratori. My suggestion of change would be more notable yes, but unless someone could speculate some more cons like the ones I brought up last post (again inside the spoiler tags), then I'd think the Pros tend to suggest that the change is not only harmless, but helpful. Still I'd encourage you to read more of my concealed comments in the last post when you can and if possible provide some rebuttal. 2. Actually I don't find it outright bad and that why I and possibly other like minded posters tend to be vocal in our criticism. We want it to either end or at least stretch out in more creative ways so that we can keep liking/loving the series rather than having to take a break like Kogoro and Eri:-).
  14. "The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use." 1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. "Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again..." 2. Right, but retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself. Pointing to the Desperate Revival again, the arc redoes several elements that have been done, but with actual variation and freshness. A. The first two times that Ran show suspicion, it basically was by the number. Something happens to prompt her suspicion of Conan being Shinichi, she corners him in an attempt to get the truth and then after a trick to prove otherwise, she drops her suspicion or at least give up for the time being. Heck, one major mistake she makes the first time around is letting Conan know that she's onto him, thus giving him space and time to find a way to disprove her claim. And she makes that mistake for a second time (and 4th, but not my point). With DR, we get an actual shake up with: A. Ran having maintained the knowledge this time around realizing that approach him on the the matter will likely prompt him to trying to lie to her again. B. We actually have Conan for the first time actually humoring the idea of telling her everything and not as some last resort (i.e. telling her so she can inform the train conductors about a bomb). Plus the first two attempts to throw off her suspicion are simple tricks. First time he gives Agasa the bowtie so he can call Ran with Shinichi's voice while Conan is present. The second time, he has his mom coming to claim he's a relative of Shinichi. This time around, we get Haibara using an decent Conan disguise with the means of imitating his kid voice, while the genuine article appears as Shinichi which really helps to make the 4th time around all the more underwhelming. B. The first time around, Conan regained his true body long enough to solve a case only to revert back almost immediately. This time around he has a lot more time to adjust to the possibility of being normal and being able to resume his life to a degree. In short, it may rehash a couple things, plus ending with the status quo intact, but the writing and the energy makes it feel more impressive than it maybe should. "...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one." 3. Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black. Especially as: A. I don't know, I think the story could have found a way to do the whole double cell phones which what is basically the only redeeming value of the 4th suspicion arc. B. Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point. Now I'll grant another concession. As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact. But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control? And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad. 4. And I apologize for harping on the subject so much, it's just that so far, the only possible downsides I've seen to letting Ran come into the fold earlier would be. By earlier lets say that during the time of the 4th suspicion arc (Episodes 398-400). Instead of Ran approaching Conan like in the canon, it's merely the jumping point to begin her attempts to uncover the truth and find proof so that Conan can't rebuke her claim. As to when the secret between them is over, can't really find a specific point, but maybe mid 400s sometime before Clash of Red & Black. That said here's the suppose problems that make a request unreasonable. Spoiler tag for compression sake: I'd welcome some speculation for the sake of discussion and perspective, but for now those are the only downside I see for this particular bit of the status quo. Now on the flipside here's the positives to changing things in this fashion and again spoiler tags to compress the post:
  15. While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really. For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc. And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone). Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin. But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear. Now lets start with the Shiragami arc. First two episodes are pretty alright. Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder. Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc. Last episode is meh. At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else. The Desperate Revival? We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate. Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future). And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form. Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated. In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body. So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran. As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen. Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo? Too damn bad.". Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide. Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.
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