Antiyonder

Same here. Thought it was maybe a joke, spam or something else when I saw it.

I think if there's anything really to object to regarding your stance and it's not just you in particular, it's pretty much overlooking any positives to Ran while just focusing on the negatives. As Ayuna points out for example, if there's anything big that Ran and Shinichi can agree on, it's that all life is sacred even if the person is either a criminal or the person is one you don't know. Haibara herself is unquestionably a good person and is willing to put herself at great risk to save her loved ones (compromising her secret by taking a temporarily antidote to save the Detective Boy for example). But it arguably takes a lot more sense of courage and justice to stick your neck out for someone you could careless about. Though I will say that I don't think it would be impossible for Haibara to grow beyond said aspect if given the chance. I mean just because I don't support a pairing or lack an interest in it, doesn't mean that I agree with dismissing the potential love interest as a character or ignoring their merits. And again regarding her capabilities, I point to the Desperate Revival, which despite her slip ups, she held on to her suspicion for a long time unless the previous two and fourth suspicion arc. That's 92 episodes (9/10 manga volumes with 112 chapter) that Ran managed to avoid tipping off Conan. Plus, when Conan is recovering from being shot, we see him even recalling an example of overlooking Ran's suspicion as demonstrated in Episode 174: The Twenty Year Old Murderous Intent: The Symphony Serial Murder Case, or Volume 23 (File 229: This is the Truth). Not to mention that when it comes to all suspicion arcs, it's only the when you drops the subtly that Conan even catches onto her, demonstrating that she can fool even someone with a higher than normal intellect. Much like any other times Conan does stumble onto her suspicion, it's only because he has talented allies to help him with providing evidence that he and Shinichi are two different people. Considering how Ran did manage to conceal her suspicion until that arc without any help, imagine how well she could perform if given that level of trust and support. Bottomline overall, if you support Conan/Ai, Shinichi/Shiho or whatever, cool. Though if you believe your pairing of choice is more substantial, I'd think you should be able to demonstrate confidence in your opinion without cutting down Ran's merits in the process. Afterall, one who believes their stance to be valid shouldn't have to fear or hide from the (inconvenient) truth. Kind of like how I used the Desperate Revival to demonstrate that Ran does have potential for example to help keep the secret until the end, even though others could use it as a counter argument. The episode at first glance would suggest she's unable to keep the secret, yet I feel the details (referring to above) once you look closely speaks stronger that the slip ups. At the very least though, we should be able to agree that he's not worthy of either until he can be more honest and less egotistical:-). Right?

[quote=AnimeOtakuDrew]I agree that the reveal could be done without putting Ran in danger, and even her acceptance of it; I just think that having it that way would be the most dramatically intense. I do, however, really like the idea of Ran doing some investigating of her own leading up to the discovery. Perhaps she does her investigating, has it completely figured out, right down to the Black Organization even, but it isn't confirmed yet, then the some member of the Organization notices her investigating and thinks the BO is her target and goes after her. This could then leads to a situation such as I described, where either saving Ran will confirm what her investigation found and reveal his identity to her, or revealing his identity to her will save her life. I like the idea of combining both of those: Ran's detective work AND the dramatically intense saving Ran by revealing himself.[/quote] It certainly is dramatically intense, though I think the better course of drama would be a two fold development for Conan. Namely once Ran is brought into the fold, things should rightfully be uneasy for both of them. Not just because Ran is now a potential target for sure, but she still has to cope with the fact that someone she loves has been. As such Conan has to also realize that for all of the danger that the Organization may pose, he has the potential to cause Ran more emotional hurt through his actions than they can with their physical threats. And of course, Ran being in on the secret means that she could potentially be a big help in some cases whether filler based or Organization related ones. During which, Conan also has to accept that the person he underestimated most is in some respects his best ally. Basically what I'm getting at is that sometimes the best drama comes not from dealing with the bad guys, but rather the hero having to acknowledge and to overcome their own unsavory traits. After all, fighting a criminal is relatively easy for Shinichi, whereas admitting to imperfection is arguably his biggest flaw. And aside from Ran needing more to do in the overall plot, Conan definitely need such a wake up call. Especially when his initial philosophy is "There is only one truth". Cool. As a bit of an advice, if you have Netflix or at least you have a friend or family member who lets you use their account, episodes 748-799 is available for viewing with subtitles. Additionally, Crunchyroll also has some of those episodes, plus 800-829. 830 is available as well, but only for paid subscribers, but as with all episodes on the site it seems, it will be available for free viewing in 3 days. As such when you get to those episodes I suggest you view them in that manner if the option is available. Especially as more views would possibly encourage them to add more Detective Conan for legal viewing. [quote=Ayuna Yume] And someone mentioned that BO's not sparing her even if she doesnt know, so I don't see the point in keeping the secrets, and also no matter when she finds out, she would always forgive him coz its Ran, she would never use her karate on Shinichi, pls dont mind my previous comment:( [/quote] Plus I think for all of the times that Ran has displayed less flattering traits like superstition, that shouldn't be used as a reason to dismiss the possibility that she is capable of holding her only or displaying strength and intelligence when it matters. 1. For one thing, it's not like Shinichi/Conan is any better. Take a couple of old cases: - Ayumi-chan Kidnapping Case: Mistook a couple of actors for kidnappers. - Conan Edogawa Kidnapping Case: Didn't pick up on the clues that his parents were punking him. True, those were more plausible fears rather than say believing that Dracula and the legion of the undead are planning to invade Tokyo, but nonetheless Shinichi is suppose to be smarter than not only the average teen, but practically the entirety of the police force. And a major reason he's in his predicament is due to him overestimating himself and being outsmarted by a long haired main in dark clothing holding a pipe. Now some of you might be thinking, "but Ran tends to maintain her flaw while those mistakes you cited were from early on in the series". Well, in Volume 49 (Episode 425), Conan forgot to remove some chewing gum with a tracer from Hidemi's residence which resulted in Gin nearly offing Kogoro. And that would have likely been the outcome if Akai wasn't in the picture. Plus, even later, he had to pretty much confess his feelings to Ran in the London arc, just because he didn't do a good enough job at avoiding her. And in all actually, I do like Conan/Shinichi. I may be more critical of him as of late, but my point is that any character can look dumb if you choose to focus only on the mistakes and low points. Now for an alternative comment to follow... 2. Any problem Ran possesses really strikes me as Gosho unwilling to let her experience more growth and development despite giving pretty much other characters a chance to be better. Even then I think Ran has shown more potential than given credit for. To start off simple, like Shinichi she too has kept her own feelings a secret for a longtime and despite her friend being a very smart detective, he still didn't figure it out until she told him directly while he was Conan. To bring up a previous comment I made, look at The Desperate Revival. To bring it up I'll concede right now is a double-edged sword as Ran did let it slip that she was onto Conan's secret for the third time, start with the first part in Episode 188. However, let's really look at that example. Unlike the previous times she showed suspicion that Conan and Shinichi are one in the same, she didn't just happen to stumble onto the secret this time. It's hinted in both the manga and anime that she held onto that suspicion from Volume 14/Episode 96 (The Cornered Famous Detective! Two Big Murder Cases). In other words, she held onto the knowledge of Conan being Shinichi for 10 manga volumes or on the anime side, 91 episodes before Conan became aware of the fact. And while Conan/Shinichi isn't infallible despite popular belief, it's still no small feat when someone, especially an average teenager can get the better of him or withhold important information from him. As such, I imagine she could do even better if trusted to do so, especially with other people in on the secret being able to help her adjusting to such rather than working against her.

Or in terms of getting the collected material, that would be Volume 1-53 (save for the last chapter, 553), right?

Yeah, might as well go with it being the milestone. Though I will maintain it should have happened sooner, which I'll go into more spoilerific details after you at least get to 700-800. But as that ship sailed, 1,000 is as good as any I suppose. As for your approach: It's not too bad, but I think there are other ways that Ran could be understanding. I can't think of any myself, but there's this really great fanfiction called The Mystery of Conan Edogawa (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4553963/1/The-Mystery-of-Conan-Edogawa) which has Ran doing her own detective work to prove once and for all. Strongly recommend it, but maybe after you view up to 508. Probably 20 episodes sooner, but I just want to get spoiler warnings out of the way. I bring it up to be honest, because it seems like the perfect way to accomplish the much needed change. Has Ran come onto the secret much sooner, I'd say any method would suffice, but part of the problem of the character is a lack of agency or not really getting much to do with her frequent screen time (even with her occasional absence, it just feels like she has the most appearances outside of the lead character). Having her do some detective work is a great start to giving her character more to do in stories, and considering that Conan needs to be brought down some more pegs, having the one who he's dedicated much energy into deceiving is perfect karma. Plus, it helps to demonstrate to non-fans and Conan himself that a girl outside the FBI, police or even the Organization can be strong. That said, I don't think she needs to be put in danger to be sympathetic or forgiving. Going with the aforementioned fic's approach, if she has the potential to find conclusive proof, I think she could easily come to the conclusion that he's not doing it to be a jerk (well at least not intentionally). Now for the reaction, you seem to be on the right track. I do think it should be a balanced nuanced one that doesn't give an easy answer. As much as I feel that Conan would benefit from this development in that he has to own up to his own flaws, I don't want Ran to hate him or throw him out of her life. But I don't want the problematic aspects of his protection to be brushed under the rug as well. And as I'm guessing you agree on based on the part of your quote that I bolded, there's enough of a reason to believe that the secrecy can contribute to Ran or anyone else being in danger. I mean Gin and Vodka aren't people I expect to show mercy to the ignorance. At best they would refrain from a murder that would put them on the radar, but if they found out Conan is Shinichi, I don't see them taking the time to see if Kogoro or Ran are ignorant or aware. And the fact that the provided him with a place to stay, plus know Shinichi himself is a reason to take the precaution of gunning them down. Heck, unlike The Amazing Spider-Man 2 movie, the original comic book version of Gwen Stacy was targeted and killed by the Green Goblin inspite of never finding out that Peter is Spider-Man. So yeah, assuming that your enemies will operate on a code of honor except for the occasional few is stupid. Mind you, I believe there's enough of a reason for Ran to understand and forgive him, while still having her show some signs of pain due to feeling a lack of trust. Enough so that Conan can mature a bit more through: 1. Realizing that sometimes a loved one can suffer more from the hero's good intentions than the villain(s) malicious intentions. One will be unaware that their actions are wrong, while the other at least gives no pretense. 2. Realizing that a girl doesn't need to be in law enforcement to be strong and that sometimes you have to trust people in order to get by in life.

Honestly, I feel it should have happened by the point you're reading due to it being an area where it seems to be agreed that her character became stale. Though at any rate long before the final arc. To wait until the end means either ignoring or downplaying the emotional consequences, whereas during the series allows for more time to give Conan a chance to redeem himself in that regard. I have more to say, but I think I'll wait until you viewed more episodes as I gave a reason elsewhere for my stance, but it would spoil you on details.

Frankly I think Ran is underestimated by both the cast and fandom. Take for instance the fear that telling her the truth will cause definite armageddon. I call bull on it, but I'll concede upfront that my reasoning is a double-edged sword in that it does validate the claim that she can't keep the secret from the Organization. The Desperate Revival (Volume 25-26 in the manga, and episodes 188-193 of the anime). She definitely tips Conan off by panicking about the idea of them bathing together and later by asking to give her blood to save him from death, but arguably that situation was serious enough to negate the importance of secrecy. Regardless lets look near the end of Episode 189 or beginning portion of Volume 26. Conan is laying wide awake in the hospital at night recalling how Agasa said not to tell anyone, including Ran and Heiji mentioning that Ran is just keeping a distance so as not to push him into coming clean. Plus the manga has him recalling the parting words of his parents from Episode 96/Volume 14, both suggesting that Ran might still be onto him. More importantly he recalls an interaction from Episode 174/Volume 23 where during their time on a ship where Ran treated him more like her 17 year old friend rather than a 7 year old boy. In other words, she didn't just develop the suspicion at the beginning of the Desperate Revival, she's remained suspicious since the last time she confronted him and was able to hide that suspicion for at least 92 episodes/10 Volumes. Pretty impressive for a girl who people consider if not outright calling her stupid and weak, especially when Conan would normally pick up on details like that. And if Agasa, Ai, Heiji and the other secret keeping allies were to help her adjust to the situation rather than acting against her, she could easily be elevated to a valuable ally.

The Mystery of Conan Edogawa by Funvince: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4553963/1/The_Mystery_of_Conan_Edogawa Now there are many fics concerning Ran finding out that Conan is Shinichi, and I find this one really well put together for several reasons: 1. Basically the story consists of Ran doing her own detective work to prove the connection between the two which I find does more justice to the character. 2. For the sake of drama, some tend to have Ran really hating Shinichi for the deception only to calm down by the end. Or on the other end of the spectrum we have her taking deception well and just mildly ticked off. Here, her reaction is well balanced. 3. The writer even makes it plausible that Ran never really dropped her suspicion despite Conan's misdirection. 4. Heck, we even get a nice parallel to the Sherlock Holmes stories (Final Problem and The Empty House). 5. There are some nice touches in general that get ignored in the canon. One example is how Ran and Kogoro don't question why Agasa for letting Ai live with him, when he claimed that he couldn't take care of Conan. Nothing earth shattering, but it is something you'd think would be brought up.

Neither are many Shonen writers to be sure, but then other writers at least try not to give the love interest too much screentime or at least give the love interest something to do to earn that screentime.

1. Having Ran find out halfway into the story and actually having more to do for her appearances. 2. Let Eisuke actually approach Ran with his feelings only for her to turn him down instead of Conan making the decision for his (not) woman.

Trophy.

Frankly, the reasons he has for keeping her in the dark don't hold up all that well. 1. Fear of Ran blowing his cover: Conan is risking his cover being blown by all of those times he's helped to solve a murder as Conan, and not through someone like Kogoro, Sonoko or Agasa. And of course, Heiji's tendency to call him Kudo should easily compromise that. Yet nothing has come of it. 2. Trying to protect her: Unless anyone can point out where Gin and Vodka display any honor, then Shinichi's reasoning fails. If they were to find out who Conan is, I think the fact that Ran and Kogoro harbor him (as well as being well acquainted with Shinichi) would prompt them to just kill the two, rather than being nice enough to see if they know anything.

The dramatic irony was cute in the early years, but it really needs to be done away with. Stalling development on the BO makes sense if not a bit annoying, because too much development on that front would lead to having to end the series. But letting Ran in on things would not only not lead to the end of the series, but it would open up a lot of side story possibilities and character growth. Plus if you need dramatic irony, you'd have Ran and Conan's relationship improving for the better as the secrecy between them is over, but they still can't be together as long as Conan is stuck in his predicament. Or in short, they're together proximity wise, but can't be together as a couple still.

I think the problem is that Ran is perhaps the most frequent appearing supporting character in the series (plus being present since the beginning). As such any lack of changes are more noticeable with her than other cast members.

As it's been said, Ran has known Shinichi personally for a long time, while the only time she met Sherry was the 2nd live action drama. And like the anime exclusive story, I imagine it's canonicity isn't in stone.

^^^Well I could be exaggerating, but I think that's owed to the fact that as a Detective Boy, Ayumi's actually doing something of importance with her screentime, whereas Ran for all of her screentime really is there just for the sake of well, being there.

Ok, but the point is, Gin wants to kill Conan, who for all he knows is a 6 year old boy who is no threat to him, but only because he's associated with Kogoro. Bottomline, members like Gin aren't honorable assassins who will evaluate whether someone connected to their target is ignorant before snuffing them. They will go for the kill to play it safe. Thus Ran and Kogoro would still be in danger even if they remained ignorant to things. Edit: That said, my 5th Pros was modified to clear up the point.

Overall, there are discussions on Ran on why she isn't liked or if there's been a decline in her character. A big part of that often is agreed to be the result of keeping the status quo intact and keeping ignorant of Conan's secret. Such a topic has been discussed before as well, though mainly question why Shinichi doesn't man up and tell Ran he's Conan. So, I figured it might be nice to start a thread with the arguments against or for it, to really determine whether the criticism towards this particular status quo is baseless and just some of us being impatient or whether it's a development long overdue. And for those who might frequent the DCTP forums, you might have seen this post already. Now of course I've looked at arguments that are based on the creative reasons or in universe reasons to ensure I've covered all bases. That said, the Cons, as well as the rebuttal against them go first and then the Pros on why this development would be good all around. Spoiler tags are to decompress the content. Cons Pros Bottomline, the in universe reasons for keeping Ran in the dark have lessened in their validity, and the only losses we have for story potential just seem to be retreads of stories already told. Now of course, I welcome disagreements on my points, especially if there's something I haven't considered. I just ask that any disputing my points read through them and specify the nature of the disagreement. Edit: Modifying Pros #5

That particular reasoning loses effectiveness when you look at Episode 425. Gin suspects Kogoro to be onto the Organization and seeks to kill him. When Conan shows up, he's prepared to kill him too. And just to clarify, to Gin, I'm pretty sure he sees Conan as nothing more than a 6/7 year old boy, but is willing to kill him due to association with their target. As such, if Gin and Vodka find out he's Conan, then Kogoro and Ran are going to be targets whether they know or not, simply because he lives with them. So if anything, coming clean with his secret or moving out and distancing himself from them would be more effective means to protect them. At this point, he doesn't even need Kogoro in regards of being able to get a lead on the organization either. If he needs help in finding them, he has the option of a much better detective in Heiji (who actually is aware of said group), or his father's connection to Interpol. Frankly the only reason the status quo is preserved is the questionable reason of how Ran finding out about Shinichi would either lessen the drama or limit potential story ideas.

Honestly as someone who is for Shinichi/Ran, I can see why she might be overrated, or I'm making a baseless guess. But I think it just goes back to how early on in the series she arguably had more of a character to her that seems downplayed in the recent episodes. And I think overall it's that their relationship overall works better when a series isn't anywhere near as long. Over 70 Volumes of manga and over 500 anime episodes. Yeah, we can discuss it in other threads, but keeping things the same (aside from the London confession) is questionable for a series this lengthy.

Started reading at 23, and still reading at the age of 31.

Even with understanding, I don't think her reaction needs to be completely okay either as it's not a simple matter of keeping the truth from her at this point: 1. Whenever she has some evidence to confront him on the secret, he tends to make her feel stupid for her suspicions to a point where she might doubt her own intelligence. 2. The more people that come in on the secret, it really makes the whole "Can't tell Ran" ridiculous and infers that telling her is a definite game over. That said, I feel the need to plug this fic here (plus it's a good read): http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4553963/1/The_Mystery_of_Conan_Edogawa It sets up her overall reaction well in that it's balanced. She's given understandable reasons to forgive him, while feeling some resentment at being lied to. Read it and you'll understand how I feel she should take it.

1. See, this is why Ran should in my opinion should be allowed to finally be let in on the secret (or at least if he goes with her maintaining suspicions, having them confirmed) before the final arc if not now or soon. Even with the frozen timeline factor easy forgiveness tends to be a problem when it comes to fanfic writers tackling such a story. 2. I sometimes wonder if that's why we get the occasional story of him succeeding in a case. Of course, we'd need to see more of him succeeding before things end.

Going back to this thread, another thing that gives the manga a plus is as mentioned before that it's how the story is suppose to go. In addition to the anime versions of "Mountain Villa Bandaged Man Murder Case" and "Akaoni Village Fire Festival Murder Case", they have minor plot hiccups due to their reordering. 1. "Akaoni Village Fire Festival Murder Case": Conan corners the suspect, but when it's apparent that he won't surrender and is willing to commit another murder, why doesn't he use his wrist-watch stun gun, which by the time of the anime version exists (in the manga, the stun gun came a bit later)? 2. "Mountain Villa Bandaged Man Murder Case": Conan plans to solve the murder through Ran, but gets Sonoko instead and has to settle for her. Thus in the manga version, it's the first time she's used for solving a murder. Now in the anime, she was used in solving the murder in the "June Bride Murder Case", yet the anime version of the MVBM Murder Case keeps Conan choosing Ran first rather than going for Sonoko (whom he used before)..

Ok, I get that people want it to go on longer, but I'd think having it end while the author is able to write a conclusion is better than say it ending through cancellation and not getting closure.