User talk:Chekhov MacGuffin/Archive 3

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Re: Questionable deletion in pilgrim

No worries. :) --Skyechan 23:06, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Vote please! --Skyechan 23:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


Okay, then what about the rest of the characters? Do you want them to be changed to subheaders of characters name in relationship analysis?

It depends on how many characters listed there are. Take Ran, which has five people listed with only one or two under each heading. That doesn't really need subheaders at this point. You can put them there, but it doesn't matter much to navigation. Conan on the other hand has a ton of them, so subheaders work well there. From a mod perspective, I wouldn't revert you if you changed every character's relationships to subheaders, but I would if you tried to change, say, Conan, to bullet points. It's kind of a judgement call. Use your time where you think it is the most needed. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 21:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Re: Police Insignias

Thanks! I did run across it in my research -- I'm currently compiling a combination General/Culture police page and the various ranks we canonly know of for the characters. Hopefully I'll have it up soon. Also, if there's a good place on the individual pages to add a picture, I'll look into it next. Ocianne 15:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Vermouth appearances

Well, I procrastinated for a LONG time with making an appearance page for Vermouth due to the complication of her multiple disguises, but I finally created something of a rough draft to work with. The article is located here. I'll fill out the Anime section at a later date, but I was wondering if you had any suggestions for better organizing the list. If you could take a look at it when you get a chance and tell me your thoughts, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you! :) --Jigsaw 17:50, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Oops… I’m rather late in responding to your response, but thank you very much! I'm slightly preoccupied with other stuff right now (both DCW and real life), so no need to rush with this. I look forward to hearing your thoughts, however! Thanks again, Chekhov. =) --Jigsaw 04:13, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Timeline Detail

Since you're the mod who created the page, I figured I'd ask your opinion regarding how much detail in-storyline events merit for the timeline, especially for complicated buildups like the Vermouth arc. Should it err on 'this event happened', or 'this event happened in this summarized way and these things play into later events down the timeline'? --Ocianne 05:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

That helped a bit, thanks. I went with 'simple and straightforward, but hitting the high points' as much as seemed possible.--Ocianne 01:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

RE: Battle of the Haunted Warehouse's Treasure

No worries. It's understandable when you consider the unusual combination of characters that I added to the article. Gotta love random flashbacks. =P --Jigsaw 04:19, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I was just about to suggest archiving some of your talk page. Guess you were one step ahead of me. Sorry for the multiple talk page notifications by the way. Last one, I promise. =P --Jigsaw 04:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Other Culture Page

Icka found this link earlier and I wanted to share it with you. Perhaps we'll get to work on a page like this at some point in the future? ^^; --Skyechan 06:00, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Pictures in Akai's Truck

Noticed you removed a line regarding it. I can't double-check at the moment, but I think the pictures in question might appear in the truck in the opening of episode 345? Hope this helps! --Skyechan 11:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


Not sure how many people will see the talk pages so thought I'd ask you since we're both pretty much up to date on stuff. Do you have any ideas where one of the editors got Shizuka and Makoto's English names (Melinda Hartwell? Taylor Somerset?) from? I'm pretty sure nothing with them was ever dubbed but I wanted to double-check to see if I'm missing something. It looks like that information was added by our anonymous IP person so I highly doubt it's legitimacy. But that said, thought I'd double-check anyway because otherwise the info needs to be removed as soon as possible. :/ --Skyechan 14:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Re: Redirects

No worries. I'm just glad to see the character list looks a bit more manageable now. --Skyechan 03:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Re: Volume 75 Edit

Yaiba does appear, as a character on the TV during that particular scene. I'm not sure how we should handle listing the character now though. Ryusuke Higo appeared on the TV during this scene as well and this is simply mentioned under the recurring characters page. --Skyechan 02:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Re: Thanks

I try. :) I always appreciate a second pair of eyes to catch my own typos, especially when it's a large body of text. Hope you don't mind the minor edits I made in the Relationships sections. --Ocianne 23:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

RE: MK Special 6 picture

When I created the images for the live-action series I figured out that having the smaller image sizes prevents squishing, pixelation, and other oddities from automatic resizing in the wiki. Personally I would not use the image the person chose for 6 as it is way too dark, but I don't have access to the raw episode yet, so I simply resized the image to match previous uploads. --Skyechan 17:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Handedness Article

I'm not familiar with editing formats, so I'd like to make this request for you to personally handle. In the handedness article, you should include a very important detail into Akai's shooting in Chapter 504. Akai was using a right handed Bolt Action Rifle. This important because left handed people either order a left handed Bolt Action or hold them like a right handed person; the use of the Bolt is extremely awkward and difficult if a right handed Bolt Action is held lefty style, and vice versa. It could be a slip up on Aoyama's part, but it's worth mentioning since all we have is reasoning to draw Akai's hand on; it's possible this is meant to show us Akai is faking his left handedness and overplayed his part in this shooting.

Also, for the article in general, may I recommend a more detailed description of each person's movements with their hands? I noticed you discounted the possibility of Akai using a right cross against the bus jacker in Chapter 289, left out the fact that Akai was searching the fruit basket and had just occupied his right hand in Chapter 601 (unless your contention is that Akai knew right away that it was directly under the apple) and should also point out he started this search with his right hand, you left out when Gin used his phone with his right hand in Chapter 603 because he placed it in a right pocket due to the fact that at that time he needed his left hand for the laptop that was showing him the contents of the vans, and you put his assassination of Pisco in Chapter 242 as "Unavoidable," when this itself is an assumption; there are people in the world who can use a body part that's in extreme pain without drugs, so it deserves a mention if nothing else. Also, I think pointing out Vodka's watch changing hands as a continuity error in Chapter 383 is wrong because you already pointed out Aoyama erroneously had watches on dominant hands before that in the same section; it seems redundant and it's clearly Aoyama cleaning up his prior mistake. That's just what I noticed, and there may be more. -

Hi, the the handedness article is actually a personal reference page because its a bit too specific to be a real article, but I welcome any and all corrections and additions. I looked into it, (read visiting imfdb) and the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare that Akai is using is indeed right handed, which I will make a note of. I think it is likely to be a slip up on Aoyama's part (lefties drawn/pictured using righty rifles happens a lot, so I've been told), because it would be the height of foolishness for Akai to handicap himself by using his off dominant hand on a one-try-only precision shot from 700 yards. Akai has been shown to prefer his left hand in other tense short-notice-to-react situations, like the scene with Vermouth.
Regarding the other part or your request, sure I can make it more detailed, but that will take a bit of time.
  • 289 was definitely a left handed strike because that was the hand Akai was swinging around to hit (this is from the manga, you can see the movement lines). If you are saying he was bringing his right hand around, that is unlikely; he was facing nearly backwards from the robber and squatting at the time meaning the rotation needed for a fluid hit with the right is impossible.
  • In 601, I do think he was expecting a bomb under the fruit (he thinks as much in the next panel!), and that he was freeing his left hand to grab it. It was someone else's gift, so it isn't exactly polite to set fruit down wherever, which he would have had to do if he was using his left handed only.
  • In 603, Gin actually has two radios in this scene which I should have clarified. I am assuming you are talking about the first radio (page 4) that he uses to talk to the motorcycle trio using his right hand. It's hard to tell from the art but it could be a radio connected to the dash with a cord because it has no antenna, so I will make a note that it could be unavoidable if it is corded, it would hang up on the right side of Gin on the dash. I don't see where he put it in his pocket. Gin likes to keep his hands in his pockets whenever he isn't doing anything with them, so I am not going to risk wrongly interpreting it as he put the radio in the pocket versus setting the radio down in his lap or something like that. This is especially the case if it is a corded radio.
  • I put the assassination with Pisco as unavoidable because Gin had an injury that limited the actions he could take with one of his hands. The inability to grip and stabilize properly because of gross tissue damage, Conan's tranq in his system, and general pain might throw his aim (Pisco might try to run for it.) if he tried to use his right hand. He would have used his left anyway, but because the option of using his right was limited, I listed it as unavoidable.
  • I plan to keep the note about Vodka's watch because it was an important clue in determining Vodka's handedness for sure - as a contrast to Gin, and I think it is important to note the point of transition.
Chekhov MacGuffin talk 15:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
It looks more like he's sideways to me, and if it is that's how you gear up a left outward chop, a left elbow, a right cross, and maybe a few other attacks. And you actually just made a new point for me. When you strike, you're supposed to put your whole body behind it. This could be another error by Aoyama, but it looks like more power would be given to a right handed attack with only minute accuracy errors; a right handed attack would be fine as long Akai's style isn't Krav Maga.
The point I was trying to make with the fruit basket is that it's one thing to know/expect to find a bomb, it's another to know exactly where it's located. You're right, setting the apple down randomly would be rude, but the point I'm making is that Akai got lucky and the first fruit he pulled was directly over the bomb. What if it wasn't? What would his next move have been? And how does this effect the article? That's all I'm saying: taking the bomb should be an Unavoidable, not a Miscellaneous, and taking the fruit is tough to call.
No, I was talking about the second device Gin used to talk with Vermouth, and I assumed it was his cell phone. The pocket was my mistake, I was looking at a darker scanlation and thought the seat was empty, and with his hand in his pocket I assumed he was reaching for it in there. However, my general point still remains the same: these moments belong in Unavoidable. On a few of these early pages a laptop or similar device that was feeding him the scans of the vans was on his lap, which, according to page 6, had him inputting commands of some kind (my guess would be moving between, and perhaps opening, the scans). The device he used to communicate with Vermouth is unavoidable due to where he placed it, and the device from page 4 can be considered unavoidable (regardless of any cord) since he was keeping his left hand ready to use the same laptop, and this laptop is an additional reason to suggest that even if the second was on his lap close to his left hand he would use his right hand. Additionally, putting the first device into his right hand can be attributed to the gear shift, so this is an additional moment that I think is better suited to Unavoidable.
Fair enough. However, how about including this little description? Your reasoning's sound, but since the possibility of this being optional is still real without concrete evidence from Aoyama, I think this deserves noting.
And the Vodka note was just an aesthetic suggestion. Like I said, including the previous note and this one makes the point sound redundant, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for a wiki.
Final notes on the shoot out. We don't actually know which hand Akai made the all important, one chance shot with; nobody saw how he held the rifle until after he made that shot. For fairness to bolt actions, they're famously considered more accurate than semi-automatics. For the scene (and this could be a manga's limitations), Aoyama made Akai's final shots look like they were fired from a semi-automatic, so another possible artistic blunder is worth noting somewhere. And as a word of wisdom, nothing that can be used as evidence in a mystery story should ever be chalked up as an artistic blunder before the truth it is/could be evidence for is revealed or the creator and/or staff says so.
Also, while I'm here, may I make one more request? A friend and I went over this series and this wiki, and I just noticed that a single idea we had was absent from the most logical of places on the site. Does a section or article concerning the possibility of a traitor in the FBI exist somewhere? -
Regarding Akai's strike, again Akai is squatting while facing away. He is in the middle of what clearly is going to be a left hand outside chop to the hijacker, so he must have been facing even more backwards when he started the attack. Since he was facing away from the robber and squatting, he didn't have much option for the attack.
He would have pushed the apple off to the side and grabbed another fruit.
I did list Vermouth's radio in grey which equates to no clear handedness. The reason I put it in the radio section instead of unavoidable is because Gin may have made a choice to set it down to his right in the first place instead of say, in his pocket. As we did not see the initial setup, its indeterminable, but not necessarily unavoidable. The first radio is considered handed, because he switched hands while holding it, meaning using it was not unduly handedness restrictive.
It is unlikely Akai switched hands. Switching hands would mean switching the side of the cheekpiece, adjusting the positioning of the scope from a cross eye configuration to a same side eye configuration, and then taking the time after that to recenter on the target because Akai dropped his form. It takes too long. I doubt Akai would even be able to fire back on Gin if he did all of that.
Regarding a traitor in the FBI, I think it is strongly unlikely for multiple reasons. The scope of the FBI I am considering is the group in Japan that we have witnessed. Other FBI I am not concerned about because they are not a part of the story so far.
  • If there was a traitor in the FBI, Rena's holding location would have been known and thus there was no need for Vermouth to interrogate the child and act like she had found out new information - who would she need to fool when she is reporting it too her fellow Black Org members?
  • Gin would not needed to deduce which van Rena was being held in. Sure, the Black Org could have followed all three at first to keep up appearances, but it was clear Gin did not initially know which van Hidemi was in and then deduced it on his own when he heard from Vermouth that Akai that was following the second van - a bluff.
  • Conan appeared in front of the whole assembly of FBI during the strategy meeting of Red and Black. If a traitor has witnessed that, Conan would have been investigated if not killed ("accidentally" if that was the case) soon after Red vs. Black. If Conan was investigated, this would have likely led to the uncovering of Haibara Ai, as the people connected to Conan would be investigated. She could easily be spotted by someone tailing Conan to school while studying his movement routine for example.
The FBI traitor theory is not particularly common, nor is it is not supported by evidence so far. The wiki itself operates with an inclusion standard of strong and reasonable evidence for a theory to be included (See the Akai faked his death theory for example) unless it is particularly common and this one is not. If you want to create a personal user page of the theory with details and then ask on the main forum if it acceptable for inclusion, be my guest. That is what I did for the three theory pages that I wrote.
Chekhov MacGuffin talk 19:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Alright, I'll concede the attack, but only cause I didn't consider that he had already turned a bit.
My stance on the fruit, however, remains. Had it not been under the apple, Akai would have used his left hand for the next fruit while putting the apple aside, and had that one hidden the bomb his right hand would have pulled the bomb up (at the same time, if he needed to move another, then we're back to his left hand holding the bomb). As such, I say it remains as follows: the right hand was his choice (and your theory on why is as valid as mine) and the left hand holding the bomb was Unavoidable as a result of the previous choice, but this was not an effort used for the bomb but an effort used for a search.
I'll agree with Gin's radios if you just include the laptop in your description - this last device was absent once again from the description, so it'd be a little premature to give total agreement.
As for the traitor, allow me to speak my mind on this subject:
- If there is a traitor, they don't want him/her compromised due to the value of having someone keeping tabs on the FBI. As such, Rena and Conan need to be something the Black Organization learns in its own time - if either (particularly Rena - after the DJ case Conan and the people around him are already sitting on the edge of a boiling pot) dies or is found prematurely, the traitor's existence is revealed and all value of having him/her in the FBI is gone; the traitor can only be exposed when in a position to destroy all files on the Organization, kill all agents connected to the case, and end their investigation permanently: since we're talking about the FBI, that means the traitor's in until death.
- You're acting off the assumption every agent who initially knew Rena's location at the end of this case are the only suspects - I'm a fan of the idea Camel's the traitor for this reason (among others - my friend falls more into the James Black idea using the above point with others).
- Twice in the Clash of Red and Black arc, Gin talked about an informant - the first was in Chapter 603, where the informant seemed to be unable to give him anything on the FBI's movements but did give Gin a back up plan he didn't want to use; the second was in Chapter 607 where the Gin knew the details of the investigation Camel was caught in. These aren't necessarily the same informant, but it does mean they had someone(s) watching the FBI even after they reclaimed Rena.
- Speaking of Rena, Gin seemed almost certain that Akai would come alone to meet with her. Additionally, when Scar Akai appeared, Gin's first thought in Chapter 700 was "Kir screwed me," not "Akai cheated death." He completely disregarded the idea that Rena was tricked just like the rest of them and instead said she and Akai were co-conspiring. -
Just to let you know you can sign your posts using four tildes in a row (~) and can indent by using colons (:).
I am not going to change anything about the fruit since we have moved into the realm of the the hypothetical. The list concerns what has actually happened as best as can be reconstructed.
Can you explain again how the laptop has relevance to which hand Gin would choose for either radio that the position of said radio doesn't explain?
Regarding the potential traitor, Gin's first informant was Vermouth looking for Akai's car. The second was someone they sent into the hospital. Gosho was being intentionally vague about the whole informant thing because he was actively encouraging the idea Camel was a BO spy up until he revealed that he was working with Akai on a secret plan instead. It is in the same vein as James Black making Akai sound like Gin in his first appearance.
I think Camel and James Black are both loyal FBI. Haibara has been in the presence of both Camel and James Black; she had no reaction. Also, Akai trusts both of them, and he has a pretty decent sense for Org and not Org - he seemed to already have a hunch about Kir before Conan told him his end of things (recall his initial quote about bait 596.4 - she can't be "bait" sent deep into the Org if she is loyal to the Org after all).
Besides, I don't know why you are assuming that having a spy in the FBI means the Black Org must act in an all (move only when able to destroy all info/agents/etc.,) or nothing fashion. Why can't the Black Org coincidentally be present for some function because, say, they were assassinating someone in the area? Or maybe someone else started investigating Kogoro for an incidental reason, like following up Gin's residual suspicions in the DJ case, and then finding Conan suspicious and encountering Haibara Ai. It is extremely easy for someone clever to create a series of plausible convenient reasons to act on info from a spy often without compromising him. For someone as important as Shiho, it is probable that action would be taken against her if there is easy opportunity to. They could arrange an accident: one of Agasa's inventions explodes, sabotage the beetle so there is a car crash, fire, hit and run...
Regarding the red shirts case, Gin had that spiel about how he was excited to kill Akai again and had Chianti and Korn set up to kill him, so saying he was unconcerned with Akai being alive does not match with the manga. The reason Gin disregarded Rena being tricked is because there is no conceivable way Akai could have survived without Rena doing something tricky - she shot his on camera point blank and Gin and the Org monitored her the whole time. He doesn't know how exactly she could manage, but Gin doesn't have to because its pretty easy to make that deduction.
There is no evidence I have seen for a spy in the FBI, and any vague suggestions, like Gin's informant line, can be adequately explained without resorting to postulating spies. Also there exists counterclaims (discussed earlier) that suggest there isn't one. Until there is some action or knowledge shown by Org that cannot be adequately explained without resorting to a spy, I personally will not postulate or base any theories on their existence because I think that is invalid and risky deductive logic.
Chekhov MacGuffin talk 04:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


Fair enough on the fruit. I just wanted a dog tag or whatever it's called anyway.

Your saying he put the device to his right by a free choice, I'm saying he put the device to his right because he needed his left for the laptop, and your assessment failed to make mention to this laptop and its impact on Gin's choices.

As for the traitor:

Where did you pull out Vermouth and Kusuda? Their roles in the unfurling of the series have passed, and we're talking about someone else entirely now. It is possible that Vermouth was the second informant in Chapter 607, but she was part of the initial plan in 603, so she can't be the informant Gin was talking about since this person was a back up plan.

Haibara's also gone on record stating her sense is getting weak, back in Volume 35 Chapter 10 where she said she couldn't feel/smell Numabuchi.

We don't really know how much Akai trusts them. We know he trusted Camel to deliver Rena and that he trusted James with knowledge of the meeting, but not much else. He actively distanced himself in the DJ case and his involvement with the rest of the FBI has been minimal in an "as needed" capacity in every other instance. We also have to remember Akai's alluded to having certain connections, so the fact is he could have been 100% sure Rena was clean well before the Clash of Red and Black arc even started.

Following your logic, then, it was foolish for the FBI to not make efforts to arrest the smaller Organization members as Akai made his way to Gin. The reason they haven't killed Conan is because there's only the DJ case incident to justify it which Vermouth and Akai gave him reason to abandon (additionally, Gin already suspects he and Kogoro are links to Sherry but doesn't know APTX4869 works, doesn't know there's a temporary antidote, and saw Sherry as an adult after her escape, so can't make the connection to Haibara - which even Pisco seemed convinced was true - and has reason to keep them alive). The reason they don't kill Kir is because there's been nothing besides Scar Akai to justify it. And because they don't have more solid motives, they have a choice to make: kill these opponents now and make their traitor, or leave them be to keep permanent tabs on their opponents - they can control the information Rena receives and can control the FBI and Conan's ability to stick their noses in Black Organization business (since they're not supposed to leave evidence anyway), but once the fact that there's a traitor's out they risk losing their ability to keep tabs on their opponents (and that's a huge loss when your opponents include governmental law enforcement organizations) and once Rena's killed a new and unknown agent will attempt to infiltrate (the security issue is more easily resolved, but not taking any more new members is still a huge hit).

I never said Gin was unconcerned with Akai's survival, the only point I made was that he didn't think for a single moment Akai did it alone. And how is it easy to make the deduction Rena absolutely had to help if he was alive? You offered nothing in the line of evidence to support the idea Akai couldn't have done it without Rena being in on it, you instead just said Rena was being watched as she killed him. We say blood packs and blanks, Gin can say blood packs and body armor. We say predetermined locations, Gin says Akai was covered everywhere but his face and hands. The point I'm making is that you didn't offer anything to refute the idea Akai acted without her help, and didn't address that Gin wasn't interested in learning how he did it, despite being interested in learning about how Sherry escaped and this being one of the few murders he remembers.

I said the two informants were Vermouth and someone else, without ever mentioning Kusuda (I would have used his name if I meant him). Here is how I reached my conclusion about the two.
Vermouth: Vodka asks Gin in file 603 on page 5 if he had any calls from the informant. Gin's exact lines are "I haven't gotten anything from the informant... Anyway, according to that person's (ano kata) instructions, that plan is just to be extra sure; however, I haven't been counting on the informant from the beginning." Now, fast forward to when Gin berates Vermouth for being slow finding Akai's car because he parked far away. (603.8) "You're late Vermouth... that was a direct order from that person, right?" Vermouth being the informant perfectly matches up with Gin's lines:
  • The order was from the boss
  • Vermouth's info on Akai’s whereabouts was "extra"; the core of Gin’s plan was Vodka, Chianti, and Korn with the thermographers.
  • Vodka was wondering why the informant was delayed, and Vermouth was delayed because she could not find Akai at first.
  • Vermouth initially had not found Akai, so the informant had no information (not gotten anything).
  • Gin was not counting on Vermouth's info because the opponent was Akai, and Gin had correctly predicted Akai anticipated being searched for and would make it difficult for the BO to find him.
The reason why Gosho was being exceptionally vague here is because he wants everyone to think Camel might be a spy. It was part of the mystery.
The second informant is the one Vodka mentioned sending into the hospital after Kusuda ceased contact in 599.2. Of course this informant was made out to be Camel when he appeared later. Later it was revealed that Akai called Camel in, not Vodka.
Haibara wonders if her "sense" is getting weak, but you also have to consider the parameters under which her "sense" operates. Canonically, her sense triggers around (former) BO who are focused or in an aggressive mood. On the same page, Haibara states that her sister started giving her the feeling just before the robbery, showing that her sense is conditional. (Note that most translations of this scene (bottom right panel) are wrong, even the anime sub. The main DCTP translator, Abs., provided the revised translation.) Similarly, Okiya is on and off for Haibara, and he is on when he is analytically focused or aggressive. Numabuchi was initially running away, with no intent to kill or hold hostages to escape. He then gave up on escaping and intentionally walked directly into the DB at the end (he would not have missed their voices) with Mitsuhiko and gave himself up to the police without a fuss. Her sense didn't pick up Numabuchi because he was in a cowardly state of mind, and was busy trying to enjoy the land from his childhood.
Akai trusts James Black and Camel enough. He reassures Conan that Camel is trustworthy and entrusts him not to botch a vital plan (returning Rena). He is willing to work for and be alone around James Black. Akai doing things on his own and keeping it secret is like Conan’s style. Akai is worried the others might botch his strategy, so he leaves them out of the loop, not because he thinks they are malicious. No comment on Akai’s connections.
Two things here, you can’t equate the two because the FBI and the BO have entirely different ranges and limitations on their actions. Second, neither of us know how the FBI acted while Akai was busy infiltrating, so you can’t claim they never tried to investigate or capture any lower level agents – because they might have and the readers were not informed. Hypotheticals don’t count.
They can kill Kir at any time. Maybe she was caught contacting someone? How would the FBI find out this wasn’t true? If I use your logic that they are keeping a traitor around to spread misinformation, they have already failed in controlling her, which should be their number one prerogative. She informed the FBI that a new agent called Bourbon was activated and doing something. While I do believe Bourbon’s mission to find Sherry was misinformation, the secrecy of Bourbon’s actions was compromised so that the FBI is now aware of him and may take action to capture him should they find him. It would be one thing if Bourbon was a made-up agent to distract the FBI, but Vermouth’s most recent appearance indicates clearly Bourbon is a real person with a real mission and most likely a solo one at that, making him highly vulnerable. Unless the Org was willing to sacrifice a codenamed agent to drive into the FBI a steel wedge of their own, the info leak doesn’t make sense.
Espionage-wise, it is easier to get new infiltrators into the Organization when someone is in there already and passing recent info about structure and operations and such. The informant need not be informed of new infiltrators either; separated cells are pretty common so one agent can’t reveal the other under duress should one be discovered. The Organization would have to be willing to risk this.
It’s incredibly easy to make the deduction that Rena was not tricked.
  • Basic morals mean the FBI and Akai himself would not sacrifice anyone as a body double for Akai, which means only the genuine Akai would show up. The FBI’s reaction to the death corroborates this deduction.
  • Sorry, I made the assumption that you knew a forehead protector is not physically viable. There is no feasible way to block a headshot point blank from a Colt M1911. I don’t know how much you know about bullet resistant vest products, but getting shot with a bullet while wearing one is like taking a heavy hammer blow. Broken ribs happen. Now consider that Akai was wearing his normal hat and thus has limited blocking material that can be put under there. (Metal alone isn't enough because it doesn't cushion the blow, and thin enough metal is not sufficient to block) Getting shot at point blank to the forehead even with the thickest protector Akai could have worn without being suspicious would have at minimum knocked him out so he couldn’t escape the bomb or be taken away by an accomplice, but mostly likely would have caved in his skull and killed him then and there. As long as Akai is shot in the head with a live bullet, Gin can fairly safely assume he would die. Kir would have to be in on it then because she must have conspired to use a non-live bullet if Akai is still alive.
Chekhov MacGuffin talk 00:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

You know, you are really easy to manipulate. Yes, I do know that bullet proof products still send the force through the body, a point Aoyama made himself when Akai shotgunned Vermouth, and do know that Kir's gun more than likely would have killed Akai even if he was wearing a skull cap, but I needed to get you to point this truth out, since you could always just accuse me of making it up to further your own points.

You see, there's a term in the literary world called "Cognitive Estrangement," and it's used two ways: I call one the Author Way and the other the Critic Way, you previously used the latter. The Author Way is the original way it's meant to be used, a method of enforcing Suspension of Disbelief, and it means that the author takes advantage of the fact that target audience generally would not know the mechanics behind certain elements (like when the movie 21 made the card counting team unbeatable when they were counting cards and focused, any real counter knows only someone with an Eidetic Memory can never lose at Blackjack). This is one of the arguments I expected you to bring up as to why Akai held the rifle left handed when anyone with just a bit of knowledge would know he should hold it right handed (and I also believe you used this as an argument as to why Muzzle Blast wasn't a problem with the idea Rena shot blanks); your argument would have been that Aoyama did not want to confuse his readers so played upon the fact that they probably wouldn't know how to hold a bolt-action rifle, especially since this is something he hasn't brought up himself. The Critic way works in a similar manner as the Author Way, but the difference is the Critic Way uses it to degrade a piece's value. The Critic Way means the author is the one who doesn't know the mechanics and made a poor decision that should have been researched before including into the story (like if I were to write a fan-fic on Twilight, I couldn't stomach my way through it and wouldn't know how to do one thing with the characters or anything else) - as you can see, it's your argument on why Akai held the rifle the wrong way. However, you're now using mechanics concerning Kir's handgun that are notably less well known than the mechanics of all bolt-action rifles to argue that Kir could not be tricked. You can't have it both ways Chekhov: either Akai holding the rifle wrong is deliberate choice by Aoyama or the bullet proof cap is a feasible means of faking his death.

For more proof that you're finding evidence to support your conclusions, I'd like to draw your attention back to points I "surrendered" on: the search of the fruit basket and Gin shooting Pisco. I laid out the facts of that situation for you, that Akai began a search knowing what he was looking for but not knowing where, that he started with his right hand, and that he fortunately got the bomb after the first fruit while his right hand was occupied. What's posted up on the handedness page however, is your speculation that Akai would not have continued the search with his right hand if he hadn't been lucky and that using his left hand to hold the bomb was his unshakable plan. As for Gin, I maintain that while the logic you use is sound, it's invariably a justification of why it's a choice. However, it remains listed under Unavoidable. Would you like me to point out more of the times you've done this? I really could carry on for a while, you've given me more than enough evidence.

Additionally, the FBI and Black Organization are very comparable in this particular situation. The Black Organization is a syndicate that tries to make itself akin to a monster in the attic, while the FBI has been pointed out as not having the jurisdiction to investigate in Japan (yet another Cognitive Estrangement): both of these points mean they need to carry out their operations in absolute secrecy with the only real difference being that the FBI agents can identify themselves as such and use the common vacation excuse while the operatives of the Black Organization have no such breathing room. Second, yeah, we do know how the FBI operated in that time. If Black Organization members suddenly start disappearing and Rye is a common thread between them, then Rye becomes suspicious. The FBI is known to let small criminals slide when they want big criminals, like if they're going after the worst of the child pornographers, they first infiltrate small time pedophile meetings which may contain some pedophiles who aren't even the dangerous kind and let them all off the hook. This is just common sense, and if you're currently hell bent on discounting Cognitive Estrangement, then I have more. Look up Whitey Bulger's time with the FBI; even though he broke all of them, the basic rules and liberties they gave him to follow as well as the parts concerning the FBI's targets are all true.

And are you seriously contending that proves James and Camel are in the clear? In the first place, I used that moment to argue Camel as a traitor. Who better to ensure the delivery of Rena than the traitor himself? If he gives her back, then the informant is back in. If he fails to give her back (either by being unreachable with his driving, switching with Jodie when she proposed, or anything else), then he exposes himself as a member of the Organization and ends his run on their team with the only downside of Rena's fate becoming uncertain. Furthermore, we even argue that Akai asked Rena to really try and knock him out, killing two birds with one stone with the only flaw being that it hinges on the assumption Gin would reclaim her to kill Akai (a reason my friend leans to James Black, who has no such flawed reasoning). In the second place, being alone with him does not make James trustworthy in Akai's eyes. Alone is in fact that best time to grill him, since he can't use anyone else as a means of changing the subject and no one will try to stop Akai. Additionally, if everyone knows they go off alone, then James becomes a person of interest if Akai dies and he lives. Knowing Akai's caution and apparent pessimism (meaning a slip of the tongue is extremely unlikely to happen and not too much of a problem from him anyway), he's actually safer with the traitor than he is alone.

What does letting the FBI know about Bourbon really hinder? They still don't know Bourbon's identity so paranoia spreads, and the secret nature of their work forces them to not cause too many scenes unless it's life or death time. And besides that, it's beneficial for him to let the information leak at his leisure as opposed to waiting and then having it leak. If Bourbon himself caused the leak and then drew back and waited a bit before confronting the FBI in any way as himself, then new faces are viewed with much less suspicion. Part of the logic concerning the idea that Subaru is Bourbon is predicated off this idea: Subaru is suspected of being Bourbon because he appeared right after Bourbon was revealed as activated. I can even argue your logic on Scar Akai being Bourbon is a further nail he hammered into the coffin to help cement the idea that it's someone already around them into the FBI, since logic denotes he would benefit from overhearing their reactions and subsequent conversations. Aoyama even used the exact opposite logic to hide Vermouth: she was hiding as Araide, a character who was established before her, because people would suspect the characters who came before her less, especially as new characters appeared. However, if he hides himself and the rest of the Organization has a slip of the tongue, then he's suspected just as much as everyone else when it slips. And really, she's going to be killed over a call? After what happened to her father, you're suggesting she'd let such a thing happen? She knows it's always possible, but after that horror she's more likely to minimize the odds of such a thing long before she even picks up the phone. She has to die during a job or with the capture and death of Akai and not a moment sooner.

Cowardly? Numabuchi was hell bent on seeing fireflies and not getting caught before he got to see them, that's hardly cowardly. That's your conclusion on the condition right there: focus. Once again, you let your bias shine through and disregarded the simple facts and contradictions in your words. This really has been very easy on me.

Finally, if it was as simple as Vermouth being the backup, what was the security against the possibility of something like Conan's plan of using Agasa or they didn't move her? Everything they did up until that point had a main reason and a countermeasure: the Columbine would either tip off the FBI (initial) or kill some of them (counter), the mass of patients both allowed the delivery men to skate around security (main) and got a new informant inside (counter, and thanks for pointing this one out for me before you could argue it away), and all the bombs would either force them to move her so they could snatch her (main) or finish off Rena and seal her lips forever (counter). Gin's final plan, however, hinges on the idea that the FBI actually takes her out of the hospital in a van and don't use them as a feint to just draw their attention away from another vehicle or the hospital. Even with the informant in the hospital, this is hardly protection as proven when Conan and the gang used the Empty Fort Strategy in the Red Wall case: if the FBI withdraws everyone but three or four people (pretense of a clean up of the hospital) and they transfer her to a new room, then the informant tells them the FBI withdrew and Rena is gone.

Thanks again for doing most of the work for me. This has been very useful. I now know how to get you to let the truth out in place of your stupid biases and conceit all the sock puppetting built up in you - I gave the old fashioned means a final try, but that's clearly not going to help anymore unless I further your own conclusions. Next time you hear from me I'll be using a different IP. Later, dumbass.

Re: Deletion Vandal

Yes, page protection would be the best way at the moment. But yeah, forget warning repeat offenders, just block their IPs right off the bat. They know better. (Besides, this person's reasoning they left behind was simply that they don't like Sera. ...Umm...wha?) --Skyechan 23:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

It was in the hidden text for one of the edits for Volume 73: "Why do you create theme you have to stop create the two characters sera masumi and tooru amuro i don't like the two characters who ideas to make the 2 characters sera masumi and tooru amuro in the first place please change volume 73 i don't want sera masumi appear in that keyhole and the front cover please you have to change the picture" --Skyechan 11:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Please protect the page.. this is too good to be destroyed by some annoying fans....Thanks-Sutefu-chan

Re: Help with tables

I'll help ya out. :) I'll let you know when it's ready. --Skyechan 03:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You're all set! Check out the Sandbox to see how to work the table. --Skyechan 04:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Fixed up! You can now type whatever file name is needed. :) Whenever you wanna use the table go as follows:
{{BeginTable MKTheft}}
{{MKTheftItem|<image file name>|<item name>|<short description>|<episode/chapter>|<details>}}

As you figured out, just add another

{{MKTheftItem|<image file name>|<item name>|<short description>|<episode/chapter>|<details>}}

in between whenever you need another item. :) --Skyechan 17:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Tooru Amuro fanwork

I already did reverted the picture back to the manga version but don't know why you reverted again. I knew that was a fanwork because the actual anime of Tooru Amuro will be broadcast in the future.

Yes I know what you mean, some users' computer screen on wiki doesn't show the picture when someone changed it. That happens to me too. But you know, when someone changed the picture, it takes time to show up. For example, when someone upload the picture, it doesn't show on my screen, when I waited for extra time, it actually shows up. It takes time.

Re: Haibara profile pic

It's true. But the latter, somehow, it kinda bothers me... mind if I crop it? --Officer Kaoko 23:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I cropped it, and it looked much better. What do you think? :) --Officer Kaoko 23:59, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Delinking names

Nevermind, I suppose you're right. I wasn't aware we were intending on creating pages for every single voice actor and actress ever appearing in the show, just considering how many there are. ._.;; --Skyechan 01:08, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure; I'm in the process of trying to get the info for the other episodes up to where I currently am on my rewatch, so it'd help if I don't have to go back a third time. ^^; --Skyechan 01:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

"Shiranpuri derp"

Best filename ever. CarpetCrawlermessage me 15:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Kid Takagi Request

I'd be honoured - but to speed the process up, do you know whereabouts in the Episode it is? E.g Near the end about the 20th minute? Only if you need it urgently - I've only just started the gallery so I won't be able to give it to you immediately unless you can give me a rough estimate of when the Frame appears. But if you can wait, I can get it to you eventually Hstar 20:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

How to use this new Heist Box

Excuse me, can you show me how to use this new Heist Box? --Ectvalenz

Thank you for the information :)

That means all of this

will be changed to this


Blue Birthday.png

Thieves: Kaitou Kid, Snake
Target: Blue Birthday
Owner: India
Location: Indian Treasure Exhibit
Date: Same day as Aoko Nakamori's birthday
Advanced Notice: Text of notice
Goes here
Blue Birthday is India's largest sapphire

Ok :) One more thing, when will I use this Heist Box?

Re: Characters introduced versus characters subsection

Fair enough, thanks for the heads up! --Skyechan 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)