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Chekhov MacGuffin

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Everything posted by Chekhov MacGuffin

  1. I didn't even consider the possibility that Gaito could have been referring to a moment before the crime. I think it makes more sense that Asaka would have grabbed the mirror post-Kohji-mortem out of fear of being implicated or because he/she didn't want the real murderer to destroy the clue (figured the mirror was a dying message but not sure what it said?), but I cannot find fault with the possibility you presented. I'll keep it in mind when more details of the case come out. I do think it was Kohji's mirror though for feelings-based reasons. Haibs said her mother had one of those "put on mascara" mirrors, which Akemi later took possession of. (948.5) Everyone and their ninja-clinging, neck-chopping, tea-drinking mamas knows Gosho is going to make Mary and Elena the sisters who are mothers. I know having hunches based off of throwaway lines is completely bad form, but both moms having the same mirror which was passed to someone they care about is in character for Gosho (reasonably assuming the Haneda family and the Akai family knew each other beforehand). @DCUniverseAficionado, I noticed how vague Gosho was being with that case. There is no evidence or statements that Hotta Gaito was even at the Kohji crime scene. I feel like if he was then it would have been mentioned. Vodka or the culprit would have said something. I suspect Gaito may have heard this info on Asaka secondhand from someone, but who, if not the website?
  2. I remember that it said that, but I could have sworn that it was also stated that the case files were put online as well. I could be mistaken about that. My memory is far fro infallible. Super late reply, but Asaka was reported as being seen with a small handmirror by the "Soul Detective". If (a big if, but we know of no other mirrors on the scene) that was Kohji's PTON clue mirror, then the pictures of the crime scene had to have been taken before Asaka did any mirror snatching. That is something to consider.
  3. @ValentinI was convinced, then you used "anaphoric", and then I became even more convinced. I think there are a few facts about the Kohji case which are worth mentioning. • Amanda was definitely in Kohji's room at some point. Her fingerprints on his sofa are the best evidence because moving a whole sofa is tough. • There were tea cups (ティーカップ), dishes (皿) (left off translation), forks (フォーク) which Amanda's fingerprints were found on in Kohji's room. All of this was in katakana, implying foreign-type dining I suppose. To me that implies a tea service may have been delivered at some point (Haibara speculated this) which came to be in Kohji's room. That would then imply a hotel staff member making deliveries (unless the bodyguard Asaka took over that duty.) There is at least one coming and going we should try to account for. • Conan says Amanda's fingerprints were found on the door knob (in katakana), using "nobu" which is different than a "handle". That is odd to me because most American hotels use handles, not knobs, at least on the main entry door. That might be relevant to any entry tricks. • The faucet in Amanda's room being left running, which was debated extensively up-thread. I think looking back at the Clenched Scissors and Clipped Glass Redux is extremely helpful as a guide for what Gosho thinks is possible and reasonable behavior for a criminal and victim in similar circumstances. In the case redux, the culprit Senba lured the victim Hiyama to a location of his choosing with a false pretense, the toilet room where the weapon was located. Senba then attacked Hiyama in the toilet room, delivering an initial head wound to Hiyama. Despite being a one-way exit (toilets almost never have two doors) and bodyguards present at the home, 61 year old Hiyama managed to escape 50ya Senba, but chose to shut himself in the adjacent bathroom with no exit, yet was not able to alert the bodyguards by yelling, banging on windows, or anything else a panicking victim might reasonably try (and we don't know if Hiyama tried). Senba broke into the bathroom (you can see the damage to the latch in 948.11). In that time, Hiyama cut the dying message knowing he would be killed. Hiyama fearing the message would be discovered if the the cut glass fragments were left obviously, and so chose to throw the leftovers at the culprit and make a mess to hide his message in. Senba then took a shower and pretended to find the body. (The wet slipper clue and purposeful stepping on the glass doesn't make much sense to me as described, and I'm not sure if it's a translation issue or a case logic issue. The shower and a towel/Senba's clothes being wet after the blood washing seems more pressing than any sandals being wet.) There are many conclusions about Gosho logic we can draw from this chain of events. Admittedly some is unusual in hindsight, but that's what we have to work with and we shouldn't expect the Kohji case to be logically cleaner than this one. Without further ado, Gosho thinks: • The victim's first reaction upon being attacked is fight or flight. Victims don't always make the optimal choice though. Hiyama fled to a room with only one exit instead of a different location with more escapes or somewhere he could alert his bodyguards from. • It's plausible for bodyguards not to be posted nearby relevant rooms and be out of earshot even if a fight, an escape, and a door breaking take place. • Bodyguards may have very selective hearing. They can hear a heavy ball thrown on a roof, but not a door being kicked in. They even went over to inspect the source of the sound which was near the crime scene - the toilet and the adjacent bathroom, but apparently didn't hear anything. The timing of their investigation might have been off relative to the killing, but still. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ • In fact, I'm plain assuming that Kohji's case may also involve "bodyguards" who may completely suck at their jobs and not do logical things like we think they ought to. • Cutting of glass can be done in the time it takes for an attacker to break down a door. • 948.11 shows Hiyama's hands, assuming he was right handed, not bleeding from the glass cutting process. It is possible to cut the glass in a rush without splitting your fingers. • A victim leaving a dying message in cut glass thinks it is logical to attempt to obscure the message if they think the attacker will have time to remove it. They may do this with more broken stuff. • A victim might agree to meet with a culprit he/she wronged and doesn't trust. • A culprit might be just fine taking his sweet time after the crime fixing things up if he thinks he is not going to be walked in on. And apparently bodyguards are predictable enough not to walk in on people.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you try to impose the events of the recent case onto the Kohji case you run into contradictions. 1. If you assume Kohji was attacked in his room, the crockery there knocked to the ground in the struggle, and he fled to Amanda's room, then you get the sink right but miss out on how he got back to his own room without getting caught by the attacker again who should be trying to break into Amanda's room to finish Kohji. No damage to Amanda's door was reported as far as I know. At best you could say Kohji escaped the attacker a second time and rushed back to his own room to hide the dying message among the broken pieces he knew would be there. You then have the weird problem of trying to figure out why Kohji was attacked if he was in his own room. If Amanda was killed in her room first, the killer would have known the sink wasn't running to begin with and found it weird Kohji turned it on. If Kohji was in his own room with Amanda who was the real target (as suggested), then Kohji's attacker should have found the tap running in Amanda's to be weird because who leaves their tap running when they leave their room? 2. If you assume Kohji was attacked in Amanda's room, then the message should have been made in Kohji's room and his sink left running. The teaset in Kohji's room could be explained by them first being together in Kohji's room for tea, then moving together to Amanda's room for something else, which is when they were attacked. I don't expect the correct interpretation will be found by imposing the recent case solution onto Kohji's case. Gosho doesn't repeat crimes/solutions twice, and I feel like there may be a trap set for readers who try to do so. Enough of the circumstances are different --two victims rather than one, APTX 4869, and especially the Amanda tap issue-- so that we can't assume things may be the same twice. That said, I expect this case was introduced to set the stage for the Kohji case, thus preparing a base for the readers to build from (much like how Camel's fake death set up for Akai's fake death. Different solutions, many similar ideas). Potential ideas to play around in light of the Hiyama/Senba case are: • Kohji may have broken the crockery in his own room to hide the dying message, rather than it being broken in a struggle. If so, Kohji thought the culprit would have time to notice and clean up. • Kohji may have made the message in Amanda's room, but then returned to his own intentionally to make his final stand in order to have an opportunity to make a mess and then drop the mirror. • There may have been a period of time at the end of the murders where the killer could clean up, manipulate the scene, or rectify some errors. Even move bodies and such. • It's possible that Amanda or Kohji may not have been initially attacked in their own rooms. • The killer could have moved the crockery set between rooms, although I doubt he would break it. * APTX seems to do the job cleanly, so if the killer had time at the end of the crime, he could have moved a body back to their own room without leaving a trail of evidence. Kohji's body was bleeding slightly from fight damage, so may have presented some difficulty if it was moved. • Kohji and Amanda may have been in the same room together (Kohji's having tea), and both may have escaped the initial attack alive with Kohji taking the damage from fending off the attacker and escaped to Amanda's room. • If cutting the glass quickly in a rush does not leave damage to the hands, then Amanda may have cut Kohji's mirror and given it to Kohji who took the scissors to make sure the dying message was discovered. Not sure what this would achieve, but hey, worth considering. • If the killer had time to visit Amanda's room after Kohji died, then the killer must have had a misunderstanding and thought the tap was left on by Amanda or Kohji for a reason. This would most likely be the case if he had not seen Amanda's room before Kohji cut glass in the sink. Still it would be weird for the tap to be left on. • The sink could have been turned on after the killer left. (e.g. maybe Kohji and Amanda were both attacked and drugged with APTX in Amanda's room. Kohji survived, and after the killer assumed they were dead and fled made the message first in Amanda's room (because making the message is more important than hiding it when you can die at any moment), got back to his own room where there was crockery he can knock over to hide the message in, did so and hid the mirror among the pieces, then died.) I know we don't have proof of this, but all this room switching would make much more sense if Kohji and Amanda's room were in an isolated area, or there were adjacent balconies, or those family doors between the rooms I mentioned earlier. It's really hard to imagine all of this going down and people going between rooms via a hallway which might have witnesses in it.
  4. Freaking @Serinox made an appearance to weigh in. You have no standing to argue Japanese with Serinox unless you are secretly Yunnie-chan. (or Abs. I miss Abs. so much ;_; ) The panel said the faucet is running in Amanda's room. It is what it is, unless Gosho overrules it with new info later. Yes, I think it's weird the faucet is running in Amanda's room and not Kohji's. That's why I took special notice, double checked the Japanese source, and why I made that first post saying you and MeiXx were out of line with the facts. For now, we should take the opportunity to figure out how to accommodate this with our theories. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that the translation is not "the room is perfectly neat and clean". The translation implies the situation in Amanda's room is more like "Amanda just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." It doesn't look like she was attacked, so the room is still orderly. The implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off as if she died naturally. Contrast with Kohji's room where broken stuff littered the ground which was clearly unnatural.
  5. Great, except I don't have a copy of this conversation, and really don't like hearsay on stuff like this. And again, I definitely don't at all buy that line's translation in this panel. I am good enough at Japanese to know this definitely is not literally correct. The translator had an incorrect source text, made a guess at the context, or had an additional source of information (Gosho note, later correction in chapter, etc.) that led to that edit. And regardless, it's no good to leave things as they are because if the translation deviates from the source material, there should be a stated reason that accounts for it that everyone should know. Accountability and standards of evidence and all. That's why I am saying we need a second opinion. I believe I have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt there are potential issues with Gent's translation which need to be explained or addressed somehow.
  6. Uh, I really don't think it says that. You can ask someone who knows better, but it's pretty clear that Conan is responding to Haibara, who was describing the "wealthy person's" (aka Amanda's room). This is the preceding line I mentioned above above the Bo's modus. Haibara: それより引っかかるのは荒らされたまま放置されたこの部屋・・・ Haibara: 組織の仕業ならこんな事有り得ない何事もなかったように立ち去るのが彼らのやり方なのに Haibara: 実際,殺された資産家の部屋はそうだつたみたいだし Conan: 確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しつ放しだつたつて書いてある. Haibara: (Not confident enough to translate the first part.) Haibara: The Organization's way of doing things is to leave [the scene] as if nothing had happened. (Low confidence translation here) Haibara: In fact, the room of the wealthy person who was killed had a similar impression, right? Conan: Certainly, it says the water of the bathroom faucet was left running. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that "as if nothing had happened" is like "she just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." In this case the implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off - hence as if nothing had happened (e.g. she was attacked). Again though, if you want an expert Japanese translator's opinion, feel free to ask Serinox, Yunnie, or whoever. I'm curious too. Gent does Indonesian <--> English as best as I know, which means that if the error was in place somewhere in the Japanese--> Chinese or Chinese-->Indonesian step, he wouldn't be able to catch it unless he consulted with a previous language translator.
  7. I don't know what to tell you except that I double checked the panel and it doesn't match what you say. Haibara: 実際,殺された資産家の部屋はそうだつたみたいだし... (Jissai, korosareta shisan-ka no heya wa sōdatsuta mitaidashi.) Conan: 確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しつ放しだつたつて書いてある. (Tashika ni senmenjo no jaguchi no mizu mo dashitsu hanashidatsuta tsute kaitearu.) Haibara: In fact, the room of the wealthy person who was killed had a similar impression, right? ["similar impression" meaning like the BO's style mentioned in the preceding sentence from the previous panel] Conan: Certainly, it says the water of the bathroom faucet was left running. I'm not a masterful translator, but even I can see it doesn't obviously switch topics to "Kohji's room" or "Haneda Kohji" in that panel.
  8. @gg1998, there appears to be a loop you are completely out of. One, there are no official translations of these chapters until VIZ gets to it a decade from now or whenever that is. Two, that translation on Batoto was done by fans, and I actually know who these people are. This chapter (948) was done after the DCTP manga CnD. At the time this was going on, replacement scanlators were still trying to work things out. The Clenched Scissors case was translated from Japanese, into Chinese, into Indonesian, and then into English. Yeah. 3 languages before English. Not surprisingly, there were some things that were translated wrongly. (Hell, I am more impressed by how much was correct. The translators are awesome to maintain that level of fidelity after three rounds) But anyway, these errors were discussed extensively on the DCTP spoiler boxes, and elsewhere at the time. I understand that not everyone got the memo. Three, in order to keep an accurate record, a page was created on the wiki, and with the help of those who have access to original Japanese scans, Japanese speakers, and others, the correct version of events was described. Most of it was little things, like Amanda being a "wealthy person", not an investor. However the state of Amanda and Kohji's room was incorrectly described. The true state of affairs is that only Kohji's room was messy and showed signs of a struggle; Amanda's was left like she just keeled over and died, and even the faucet was left running in it. So it was Amanda's room had the faucet on. Not Kohji's. (unless it wasn't mentioned by the mystery website maker.) Four, I highly encourage anyone interested in the Kohji case to check this page out: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Case_from_17_years_ago
  9. There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga.
  10. The Facts: The next movie is set to feature Amuro. The Movie 21 teaser was seven-segment electronic display counting down from 5 with a metropolis in the background, and Amuro spoke the final countdown number Zero, a reference to the PSB. My Speculation: We will see the logical followup of the anime/movie introduced character development from Movie 20 that Rei Furuya knew Matsuda Jinpei from police academy, and learned bomb defusal from him. Someone who likes setting bombs with mysterious clues is gonna go nuts, most likely in Tokyo since that is PSB territory, and Conan, Amuro, and whatever characters of the day are being served will go put a stop it. The seven-segment display countdown is a reference to a bomb countdown display like most DC bombs use. If this is the case, I'd expect new character Hyoue Kuroda to take a front-seat role in the movie replacing Matsumoto as the shouty police pusher..
  11. Yep, that's a fixer. On it.
  12. I think something to be aware of for the Kohji case, keeping in mind we don't know much about the room layout or setup, is that it took place in an American hotel. Many American hotels have rooms with adjoining doors so that you can visit another room without going into the main hallway. They are intended for large families or groups staying in adjacent rooms. I think it is reasonable to consider theories where Kohji and Amanda's room were linked like this, especially since she intended to see him. See the pair of doors on the left? There's one for each side that can separately be locked. When both sides agree to unlock theirs, you can pass through without entering the hallway. Sometimes the gaps between the doors are quite large, other times they are small (especially for cheap hotels without good sound insulation.)
  13. Since the new plot developments with Kohji's death, I have very slowly worked on several APTX-related theory sections in prep for updating the main Chek's theories document. The two main endeavors are 1) the Unknown Drug page alleging the existence of a drug older than APTX 4869, Silver Bullet, and the Miyanos, which is still in need of additional content, and 2) A theory that Shiho's APTX 4869 version is contaminated with research from Silver Bullet which adds additional nuance to my APTX purpose theory and attempts to reconcile the other drug Shiho was asked to develop and why the Black Organization is using an untested drug for killing. I'd like it if someone would "beta read" and make suggestions regarding the second theory (the X-Contamination theory). Here it is posted below. Shiho's APTX 4869 version is contaminated with research from Silver Bullet It is known that the APTX 4869 of 17 years ago was used for murder[1] and that Shiho's current version of APTX 4869 is being used for the same purpose.[2] It is unlikely that the generally cautious Black Organization would use a custom drug for murder if they knew it had a chance of shrinking the victim and leaving them alive. It also doesn't make much sense that they would kill people using an in-development drug which Shiho explicitly stated was not created for murder[3] and which is suspected to have a somewhat miraculous end goal such as deaging, rejuvination, or immortality. This contradiction can be explained by the Black Organization mistakenly operating on the assumption that Shiho recreated her parents' APTX 4869 (which may have been tested in the past and found to kill exclusively). It is known that a lab fire destroyed most of Elena and Atsushi's drug project research. Shiho had to piece their research together from fragments. It is certainly possible that damage from the fire destroyed certain context clues that would allow Shiho to figure out which research belonged to the APTX 4869 drug, and which belonged to Silver Bullet. In resurrecting her parents' work, Shiho mixed the research together. This hybrid is the modern APTX 4869. Perhaps because the project took the name APTX 4869 rather than Silver Bullet and for the most part has similar deadly results, most of the Black Organization seems to have assumed that it is the same drug as before. Their ignorance can an least be partly explained by Shiho hiding certain results so that even executive members of the Organization were not aware APTX 4869 could cause de-aging.[4] It is possible Shiho may misinformed the Organization about the status of her recreation project, not having realized she had mixed the research until after the Organization intended to use it for killing. This mix-up explains certain conversations, such as the one with Conan about APTX 4869's history which implied the existence over another drug beyond APTX 4869. Haibara: And the fact that [Kohji Haneda's] name was on the list of victims who were given APTX 4869, I'd say there's a good chance that Asaka was one of the members of the Black Organization! Conan: I don't get it. Kohji Haneda was killed 17 years ago. Then why is his name under mine in the list? Haibara: Perhaps the person who compiled the list wasn't going by chronological order. Maybe it was sorted by blood type or something. Conan: Wait a minute, so the drug that I was forced to take existed 17 years ago? And you are its creator? How old are you really? Haibara: How rude. I've told you before. I am 18 now. Perhaps it was an early prototype of a drug made by my parents. The information for the drug that I created was mostly taken from the burnt remains of the data that my parents left behind. Conan: Burnt remains? What do you mean? Haibara: Well, the research lab that my parents worked in caught fire, and along with them, most of their research materials were burnt. I heard from the other members of the Organization that it was an accident. Well, what I was really ordered to make was another drug, however... —Manga Volume 89, File 11 (948), Pages 3-4: "The Clenched Scissors" In this conversation, it makes the most sense that the Black Organization was hoping that Shiho would not work on the prototype APTX 4869 used to kill in the past and instead recreate her parents' final project Silver Bullet which seems to have fallen through (perhaps by catching fire) before being completed. They gave these orders unaware that Shiho actually did what they wanted her to do, which in turn explains why Shiho said that she did not intend to create a murder drug[3] and protested that the drug was used for killing. Instead, the Black Organization seems to mistakenly believe that Shiho had reassembled the prototype APTX 4869 of the past. This type of development would be so very in character for Gosho, since it involves a significant degree of failing to share information and lots of secret keeping between supposed allies. ^ Kohji Haneda's murder ^ Gin's attempted murder of Shinichi, Pisco's backup murder plot ^ a b Manga Volume 18, File 9 (179), page 9: "The Girl Made Of Lies" ^ Shinichi's survival for sure, and possibly the one shrunken mouse which was tested. The most significant proof is that no one has figured out Shiho shrank to escape her handcuffs and the locked room. Someone aware of shrinking results could easily extrapolate what happened.
  14. I've been making a list of Rum related posts as I've gone through the Rum arc to see my theory progress and it's super obvious your ideas have had the most influence over my thinking. It's pretty amazing how you'd hit me with something and then after initial resistance I'd come around to it. I'd love to see a super post summarizing your current thoughts on everything.

    1. Chekhov MacGuffin

      Chekhov MacGuffin

      Hyoue - Currently someone swapped, but I think he might be part of a backstory that isn't known yet, so we still haven't "met" his real ID in the story yet if that makes any sense. I think he knew Elena or Mary.

      I acknowledge it's not a bad idea, but I'm not really on board with the Tsutomu idea because I am uncomfortable with the 7 year time gap between 10ya coma start and the 17ya case when Tsutomu disappeared. If there was evidence that Tsutomu survived the BO for many years or had a connection that would explain how realHyoue and Tsutomu would cross each other, I'd feel more comfortable with it.


      Rumi - Asaka (On top of being Amanda's bodyguard, she had a personal connection to Koji (I think that it's more likely that they were lovers rather than family members, though)—she witnessed the double-murder, escaped, and, now, is out for revenge against Rum—she's now testing Shinichi/Conan to see if he can help her) [heck of an echo in here]


      Kanenori - Amuro's boxing teacher who also taught him a thing or two about waitstaffing and cooking. I am inclined to think he is on the side of good, but I am uncomfortable really calling it because he needs a followup case.


      Uploader - Rumi

      Tsutomu - no opinion yet.


      Muga - basically Akako's monster butler with a makeover. Plot useless except for romantic comedies with Heiji.


      Asaka - Rumi


      Rum - Chikara because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.


    2. Chekhov MacGuffin

      Chekhov MacGuffin

      Not that into the idea of Rumi loving Kohji though. I don't know why its so personal beyond she's pissed someone killed her charge and Kohji, but I'm in wait and see mode for that.

    3. DCUniverseAficionado


      I agree that the 7 year gap is a pretty big issue—it's yet another case of too little info currently available to us—and I also agree that another person could've replaced the real Hyoue. Still, if the real Hyoue's been replaced, where is the real Hyoue? Still in a coma, elsewhere?


      Yeah, for Kanenori, I might change my opinion from him being a high-ranking BO member to him being someone who just has a personal connection to Rei/Toru, depending on what we get from him in the next case he's in. I'm unsure about him, too, because I just don't know which mislead Gosho's gonna go with—is Gosho trying for a mislead, in terms of a BO member's identity (Kanenori turning out to be a BO member, but not Rum), or an alignment mislead (Kanenori turning out to be neither Rum nor a BO member)?


      I'm unsure about Muga, too—I'm still wondering if he and Momiji have a role to play beyond interfering with HeijixKazuha. I think it'd be a waste for Gosho to have them play only that role—just as much of a waste as him ultimately having Sakurako play no role in the plot. 


      As for me thinking Rumi is Koji's girlfriend rather than his sister—there's no reason a sister wouldn't be more or less driven over a sibling's death (as far as Rumi has clearly been driven) than a girlfriend would be over a lover's death. I guess some would say that my guess is, in fact, another example of the incorrect perception that romantic love has more of an impact than familial love. So maybe I should leave whether she's his girlfriend or sister alone until we actually get exposition/flashback from Rumi that answers that question directly.

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  15. Those are all really reasonable explanations for the things I pointed out. I hope we learn more details of the Kohji case soon!
  16. I think that makes more sense. Correct me if I am wrong, but here's how I think you've ordered events. 1. Amanda and Kohji meet at some previous time and Amanda tells Kohji about Rum. (Dunno why since Kohji is a just a chess/shogi player, but in Gosholand all sorts of weirdos turn out to be intelligence people.) 2. Amanda is in her room and Kohji is in his. Asaka enters Kohji's room and Rum enters Amanda's room. This happens roughly about the same time. Neither are initially aware of one another. 3. Rum kills Amanda. We don't know the method since that info was not given to us. 4. At the same time 3 is happening, Asaka tries to kill Kohji, but it doesn't go so well. They violently fight it out, but before Asaka can finish Kohji, s/he hears Rum and flees [where?]. 5. Kohji escapes into Amanda's room while in a beaten-up state. Rum hears Kohji come in and hides (in the room?) somewhere. 6. Kohji sees Amanda's body and suspects Rum (not Asaka) did it. He starts making a dying message in Amanda's room at her sink. 7. Rum comes out of his hiding place, evaluates the situation, and decides to kill Kohji. 8. Rum catches up to Kohji, who has undertaken the effort of going back to his room to leave the dying message, gives him APTX, and he dies. 9. Rum doesn't notice the dying message and leaves. (10. Asaka returns to the scene of the crime and runs off with the handmirror.) If the setup is as you described, then parts 7-9 have the most problems. Rum was hiding while Kohji turned on the sink, made loud glass cutting sounds, and then held the mirror as he crawled back to his own room. Rum should have noticed that Kohji was prepping a dying message, even if he was out of line of sight while hiding nearby. Also, I am confused why Kohji needs to crawl back to his own room instead of leaving the message and his body in Amanda's room. Finally, if Rum wanted to keep his hands clean, I could see why he might use APTX, but it would fit Asaka's modus more if he just beat Kohji to death with something on hand like a chair. Overall this version is an improvement over the previous iteration.
  17. >>>><<<< English Protip: Boring means "Uninteresting". Boring does not mean Wrong.
  18. I like the creativity behind splitting the dying message into two parts, but this part seems like the weakest link in this theory. Why would Rum go out of his way to get involved in someone else's murder job? True, doing his murder while another is being committed so the other killer takes the blame is a viable strategy, but the problem is that this scenario as you conceived it doesn't achieve this objective. If Killer A kills Victim A, and Killer B kills Victim B, but Killer B wants to blame it on Killer A, then Killer B needs to make his murder look like Killer A's style, use the same murder weapon, disguise like Killer A, or something like that. If Victim A is Kohji and Killer A is Asaka, then Killer A is a messy incautious person. Killer B didn't match that modus operandi by killing Victim B (Amanda) so cleanly. The other weak point is how would Kohji have time to leave the dying message or even know that someone named Rum was going to kill him while he was lying there in a half-dead state, having already been thrashed by Asaka as you theorized? The cutting of the glass mirror requires concentration, time, and being able to stand at the sink in Amanda's room (the sink was left running in that room so it makes sense for Kohji to cut it there.) I could see Kohji pulling it off as a healthy young man dying of APTX slowly and pouring in his last strength, but someone beaten to hell and back would have a hard time. My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is: 1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done. 2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength. 3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers). 4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked. One definitely half-baked idea I want to throw out there, as weird as it sounds, is that Kohji could have moved between rooms to protect someone who was secretly present at or present but incapacitated in one of the rooms as a witness. Rum didn't know that witness was there and committed the murders, but Kohji didn't want the innocent witness discovered and did the whole room switch thing to provide an opportunity for this person to mix in with the first discoverers and escape. Asaka is the most sensible candidate of course, but I can't explain why he/she would be hidden and not trying to smash Rum's face in as a bodyguard ought to save Amanda and Kohji. As for how Rum could have overlooked them... uh maybe he had a one eye problem and just totally missed them obviously because they were in his blindspot? That might explain how Asaka knows the killer has a fake eye/is blind on one side and gets triggered by half-blind people.... (kind of implying Asaka is Rumi here)
  19. "The boss's ID will shock Haibara" existed since at least 2008 (e.g. late Kir arc), and most likely before, and is attributed to something called "Mysteries and Secrets Revealed! Volume 19: The Case Closed Casebook". Also, I'm am very concerned that someone is taking a theory involving Lum Invader seriously.
  20. Conan straight-up thinks Rumi called him over to encounter the murder mystery and he saw less of the situation than we, the readers did via 3rd-person omniscience. Rumi was all dressed and ready to go out and had no reason to be late to school, heard the convo between the soon-to-be killer and vic, then suddenly changed plans, went to a store to buy extra things in prep for the kids to come over, and was late to school. After the tiger shenanigans, she very, very conveniently invited the kids over at the time the murder plot was going to take place, which she overheard during the convo (e.g. paella dinner time). You can complain about figurative post hoc smoke not technically being correlated to fire all you want, but I'm just going keep pointing at the metaphorical firetrucks parked out front of this situation. Let me reiterate, Conan thinks Rumi prepared a setup so they would encounter the murder case. (File 987 pgs 5-6) Do you need Rumi to literally monologue her plans before you believe that she took advantage of an incoming murder situation to get close to Conan/see Conan in action? So this is definitely truth and there isn't the slightest possibility that this is a convenient lie for her plan? Your argument is essentially Rumi did one thing I thought was immature, so she might be a teenager in disguise. I can't take this seriously because it's ridiculous and shallow. I'm getting flashbacks to when someone seriously argued with me that Okiya can't be Akai because Okiya smiles too much. Well, I'm going to be blunt. Rumi being Sera is a pretty bizarre and unlikely theory. I don't know why you'd invest so much energy in it. I think it's more likely that Wakita taught Amuro how to make ham sandwiches, but I'm not having a 10+ comment reply chain to chase that one.
  21. There is a certain type of author that tries to be too clever and defeat all his readers by parading in a ridiculous ending that no one can see coming, but Gosho is not that kind of author. If you look at the normal cases and the arc cases so far, Gosho plays fair, and doesn't go too out of his way to be difficult or shocking. It's against Gosho's personality and writing style to choose a logic-defying twist ending where Conan is the boss.
  22. Completely this. Rumi knew trouble was brewing with her neighbors. Banno Teigo had the conversation with Iiyama Kurumi in the hallway with the door open. Rumi could hear all of it. Kurumi openly demanded 100 million yen for as compensation for emotional harm because he was breaking up with her, and she threatened to sue him into oblivion. (That lawsuit would be totally laughed out of court btw.) Then Banno said "This meal will be your last" with a face full of malicious intent. By Detective Conan standards, he might has well been licking a bloody knife yandere style, that's how much "killing intent" there was going on. Veteran of internet arguments here. For fallacies to have weight, you need to be using them correctly. You aren't. Second, people who bring up named fallacies are almost always amateurs who are hiding the weakness of their arguments behind formal names. Seriously, in all the time I have been on DC forums, I think I have seen fallacies used correctly about twice. I'm pretty sure there is a fallacy for this, or at least a meme or two. If there is a problem with someone's argument, just spell it out instead of trying to dress it up with gratuitous latin. This is why you need to check the manga before you post. The timeline is like this - Rumi hears the conversation. It's very early which Kurumi mentions (979p3). Rumi realizes the killing intent, so then runs to the store and buys extra stuff because she knows she wants the kids to come over to witness the murder plot. (979p13) That makes her late to school which Conan notices. That day they are practicing for the play, which was decided in advance. However the props seem to have been built in class that day, including the tiger painting Rumi made. That explains the bucket of black (paint waste) water. Rumi painted her tiger with intent to wreck it later so she could have the kids over. So it's true the play prep was something determined to happen in advance. But the accident wasn't. That was something Rumi came up with after hearing the hallway fight. She even knew when the murder plan would take place because Kurumi and Banno talked about when they would meet for dinner. What claim is being invalidated here? What argument do you think Serinox is making? Because the last thing I saw Serinox saying was 1) that Rumi probably isn't Sera because that is a weird as heck idea that goes against their skills and personalities we have seen so far 2) Rumi was testing Conan at some point with the murder case. You seem to be arguing that Rumi is cunning and devious, but clearly is triggered by people with one eye/fake eyes/whatever to the point where she loses her composure. Okay? That sounds like a totally reasonable personality to me that's done often in DC. Conan keeps his cool normally but loses it with Ran. Ai keeps her cool but loses it with the BO. Megure keeps his cool but loses it when policewomen act as bait to lure in criminals. Maybe Rumi keeps her cool, but because of a traumatic experience in the past (Kohji case is obvious choice here) she loses her cool regarding eye problems.
  23. @Serinox said what I wanted to say but I want to further emphasize there is a zero percent chance Sera is Rumi. Arc characters are more likely to be new in a new arc than recycled. What I am more weirded out by is why you think this is a viable idea at all. Your argument's premise is two random but true facts about Rumi: Rumi glares at Kuroda, and Rumi says she is 10 years older than Kobayashi, and then somehow these are supposed to provide meaning that Rumi is Sera. It doesn't make any sense at all. It would be like me saying Kaitou Kid wears white and he steals expensive things, so he dressed up as Gin and murdered Akemi. You have to provide on-topic evidence to make a point.
  24. Kaitou Kid's latest appearance in the Detective Conan manga was in mid June 2016. Kaitou Kid took some pictures that he wound up regretting and dealt with another Kichiemon contraption: a puzzle box. The previous Magic Kaitou chapter series, Midnight Crow, dealt with the return of Kuroba Kaito's father -- or someone who looks like his father. It was released October 2014ish I think? The current series, Sun Halo, is also a part of the Magic Kaito manga, not Detective Conan. You can find out more about Kaitou Kid on his wiki page: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Kaitou_Kid
  25. Honestly Mary's probably just paranoid because someone attempted to give her a strange drug to kill her but turned her into a kid, which makes her question other strange children like Conan. I honestly think Mary's statement is about as profound as: "Gee, Conan now acts a lot older than he appears to be, probably because he is an adult turned into a kid. So, like, don't assume he will be the same as an actual 6-year old and underestimate him, I guess lol." Overall, this is one of Gosho's typical trash clues. Gosho's repeat tactic is making a suspect character seem malicious by having them say something vaguely sinister - in this case the same thing Gin said. Remember when lots of people thought there was a deep meaning to Okiya's creepier lines, but then they mostly all turned out to be complete throwaways that didn't warrant any explanation? I remember. The way you avoid falling for Gosho's trap is remembering that actions are everything, words are worthless. Mary was willing to confirm her presence, abilities, and knowledge to Conan by using the bowtie in front of him and taking out a culprit instead of letting him get away. That's an overall sign of trust, although she may not be willing to fully cooperate and exchange info. (Because when does an Akai ever share info? Younger sis doesn't even know older brother 2 plays shogi. Pretty unhealthy family dynamics there.) <hr> All these speculations about Wakita being BO or whatever are premature. He has yet to do anything of importance and little that would give clues about his allegiance. It would be nice if everyone patiently waited for his second spotlight case before declaring him Rum's mentor or somesuch. Wakita has a better chance of being Amuro's former boxing instructor for all we know now.
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