Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Antiyonder · January 6, 2017

42 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

1. The thing is, I'm not going to make a certain assumption because Gosho's retreading, as of late, has been criticized—I'm not going to assume that he's no longer capable of "good" retreading, just because of how unnecessarily protracted DC is, to some, at the moment. I'd like for people not to assume, because of how the Bourbon arc went, that every arc after it will be of the same quality until the series ends. Perhaps when he decides that the time has come to stop extending DC (when he decides the board is set), things will be back to Clash of Red and Black levels of quality and excitement—perhaps some consider current DC just not as good as old DC because he's doing all he can to keep things going, as they are, and when he stops doing that, perhaps it'll get back to a higher level of quality.

2. "Outright bad?" Ah, so stagnation is a decline for you—at least in this case—then. I can definitely understand—in this case. But I still think "outright bad" is a bit much/harsh—"very disappointing," on the other hand? I would not consider that to be a bit much/harsh. (But there are probably those who'd use harsher words and say DC is already "outright bad," at the least)

1. I feel you need to give my previous post a second even lengthy look if you get the chance. Notably part of the reason I feel that having Conan and Ran's dynamic permanently changing sooner gives it more padding material. Or just to get down to the point:

C. I keep hearing that it reduces the potential for new stories to the point that you might as well just end the whole thing. Funny, I see some pretty good stories to help keep things fresh on the side and interesting:

Relating to A and B, I don't care to see Ran post-confession hating and snubbing Shinichi/Conan cold turkey. But for the time being there's the coping aspect to the whole thing. Conan needs to accept that he caused Ran more pain than he tried to protect her from, while Ran not hating Conan is still coping with the fact that she was lied to and not trusted. While I don't know how to have it come about, maybe keep this as the status quo with things relaxing between them during the London arc as it would be one of the few stories to be heavily altered, thus allowing that arc to still has something to use for an emotional moment. Maybe near the end when Conan briefly becomes Shinichi, include a nice moment where the two decide to talk for a while and have their first friendly & honest conversation (i.e. talking in person without a voice changing device and no lies between them) since the whole Apotoxin thing happened.
Now to give Conan some understanding, while he and those helping him might have gone overboard at one point or another with the whole secrecy thing, keeping it is still important to a point. To illustrate such a detail, there could be several occasions where Ran's newfound involvement has her dealing with the irony that she was once being lied to in the interest of protecting everybody, now she has to contribute to that lie whether the person stumbling onto the secret is an acquaintance, friend or family member. Heck, this could be the reason why she might be willing to grant Conan forgiveness to begin with and help her with having perspective on the matter. Also an example of this, well the Shiragami story. I still find the first two episodes (521-522) to be decent for reasons stated, but I really find that 523 is really the weaker part as it really doesn't even try make the proverbial journey interest. At best it's something we don't see often, but other than treading old grounds without much to offer, meh. Heck, The London arc had that love confession going on afterwards. More on this in a bit. But yeah one major change for Episode 522 is that it could even be the first time where Ran isn't only keeping the secret, but has to help Heiji to actively keep others (Kogoro and Kazuha) out of the loop. What's more is the delicious sense of irony of the two main characters. One has to learn to ease up on the secrecy, while one has to practice to help maintain it. Irony and and opposite developments.
So what to do with Episode 523? Well we'd be without Shinichi story which would mean average mystery case right? Wrong. This could be say the first of many future cases since the Ski Lodge Murder Case (way back in Episode 84-85) where Ran steps up to help Conan (and in the case of this ep, Heiji) solve the case. So within the new and improved version of the Shiragami arc for example, Ran not only has to deal with hypocritically being dishonest to her loved ones, but gets to shine by helping to solve a case.
Though other characters also help in this regard, but there's more of a chance for Conan to grow out the mentality that he knows what's best and that sometimes he has to trust that Ran's presence will be more of help that hindrance, just as Ran has to occasionally accept that she can't always help Conan in a direct fashion.
Ok, one possible consequence is the serious removal of heartbreaking drama. First by removing the wall of secrecy between Conan and Ran, plus the eventual moment where their (currently platonic) relationship starts to mend and become stronger. So we end all potential tension right? Isn't that cute, but it's WRONG!!! (2 Stupid Dog reference:-)) All jerky kidding aside, yeah while the characters aren't perfect in terms of morality, I doubt Ran is going to try to be intimate with a 6 year old boy, even if said boy is her age. In other words, You have a much more compelling bit of tension which doesn't have any easy solutions, unless you consider getting a permanent Apotoxin cure or defeating an Organization is easy. Ran and Conan might have a stronger relationship with the secrets/lies gone, but until Conan is permanently cure and the threat is over, they couldn't really act on their feelings beyond friendship. There's enough tension to be found when two people love each, but are kept apart from each other both literally and figuratively. Just image being together in proximity but having to deny the deeper feelings for one another. Seriously why fallback on lack of communication as a source of drama when a much stronger and challenging one is basically given to you in a pretty box, free of charge?

Heck, it's basically a situation where Gosho can definitely have his cake and eat it too. This particular change not only does it actually still allows the series from being able to continue with some basic cases, but it gives him more material to keep things going as you put. Hence why I feel my stance is legit if not factual. If you could take any of these bullet points and provide an example of how they would pose a creative problem I'd welcome it. If I'm factually wrong, I'd at least like to have more speculative perspective on the matter.

Otherwise I feel it best sums up my stance that padding the series out isn't a problem, just that maybe he could take more creative chances like actually getting Takagi and Sato together, while also ending the triangle with them and Shiratori.

My suggestion of change would be more notable yes, but unless someone could speculate some more cons like the ones I brought up last post (again inside the spoiler tags), then I'd think the Pros tend to suggest that the change is not only harmless, but helpful.

Still I'd encourage you to read more of my concealed comments in the last post when you can and if possible provide some rebuttal.

2. Actually I don't find it outright bad and that why I and possibly other like minded posters tend to be vocal in our criticism. We want it to either end or at least stretch out in more creative ways so that we can keep liking/loving the series rather than having to take a break like Kogoro and Eri:-).

Balthazar Manfredie · January 6, 2017

A bit late to the party.

RUM arc has been a step up from the Bourbon arc for me.

But what, i guess, will always be the minus in this manga/anime is how long it is. I dont get to enjoy DC like i once had. Its greatness is stretched thin after so much...i have to say unnecessary things. Other stuff that i complain about everyone knows so not to go in to detail.

I was hoping that after Kir he was going for the end and thats it.

After RUM he has no other way to go but the BO/boss arc, it just has to go that way.

And i would love if we didnt get Conan in every episode or chapter.

I would love to see a Eri, Vermouth, Chiba case where they do it without conan being present case or an MPD case, even a day in the BO.

Its like every time i watch the police is incapable of solving anything and i know they are smarter then seen in the show.

Also, the decline for me started in the Bourbon arc, i dont know, i guess i was disappointing in the truth of that the end wasnt coming any time soon

DCUniverseAficionado · January 6, 2017

5 hours ago, Antiyonder said:

I feel you need to give my previous post a second even lengthy look if you get the chance.

If you could take any of these bullet points and provide an example of how they would pose a creative problem I'd welcome it...

... I'd encourage you to read more of my concealed comments in the last post when you can and if possible provide some rebuttal.

We want it to either end or at least stretch out in more creative ways so that we can keep liking/loving the series rather than having to take a break like Kogoro and Eri:-).

Oh, I did that. The reason I didn't rebut because I agree with your general position that Ran should know who Shinichi/Conan is and that it wouldn't just work, but would actually be better than what we have, now.

I'm not the person who you should be looking for to provide reasons for why it wouldn't work—if anything, I'd be the one looking to rebut reasons it wouldn't work.

Ah, so it's just, "yikes/ugh, I need a break from this..." Thanks for clarifying.

4 hours ago, Neo Balthazar said:

A bit late to the party.

RUM arc has been a step up from the Bourbon arc for me.

But what, i guess, will always be the minus in this manga/anime is how long it is. I dont get to enjoy DC like i once had. Its greatness is stretched thin after so much...i have to say unnecessary things. Other stuff that i complain about everyone knows so not to go in to detail.

I was hoping that after Kir he was going for the end and thats it.

After RUM he has no other way to go but the BO/boss arc, it just has to go that way.

And i would love if we didnt get Conan in every episode or chapter.

I would love to see a Eri, Vermouth, Chiba case where they do it without conan being present case or an MPD case, even a day in the BO.

Its like every time i watch the police is incapable of solving anything and i know they are smarter then seen in the show.

Also, the decline for me started in the Bourbon arc, i dont know, i guess i was disappointing in the truth of that the end wasnt coming any time soon

And that's what Antiyonder and I were discussing—how long can Gosho keep going like this until he starts losing people (though at least some would probably just take a break and come back, later)? This is a prime case of, "the stagnation did a lot of damage."

So at what point in the Bourbon arc did you go, "God, this has stretched way too thin... when will this end?" Was there a specific point when this feeling started and then just built up from there, or did a certain Bourbon arc case bring such a thought about?

Balthazar Manfredie · January 6, 2017

3 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

And that's what Antiyonder and I were discussing—how long can Gosho keep going like this until he starts losing people (though at least some would probably just take a break and come back, later)? This is a prime case of, "the stagnation did a lot of damage."

So at what point in the Bourbon arc did you go, "God, this has stretched way too thin... when will this end?" Was there a specific point when this feeling started and then just built up from there, or did a certain Bourbon arc case bring such a thought about?

i have read id

i have thought that for a long time as well

So after the Kir arc, which i was satisfied with ( excluding the AOs which were bad mostly), i was waiting for big things. After the clash series i was like man things will start to get heated. OK, so hes setting thing for the next thing and setting and setting and more setting. Anyway, i didnt like Holmes revelation then there were a some bad and some great/good afterwords, but if i had to pick like the definitive point ill chose after the deign of poison and illusion

There were a lot of stuff i just found unnecessary and the AOs didnt help either. It took to long to. In short the arc was just like the previous one with some things polished. The RUM one is decent, well, its good, but it suffers the same problems as every other arc. But this long run is so long. I mean you would think that after all these years more mysteries would have been reveled, but he keeps piling them on ( its unsatisfying ).

DCUniverseAficionado · January 6, 2017

24 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

i didnt like Holmes revelation then there were a some bad and some great/good afterwords, but if i had to pick like the definitive point ill chose after the deign of poison and illusion

So, basically, it started to be a drag in the late 780s, nearly 170 Files into the Bourbon arc... and then there was 100 more Files of you waiting for it to end. :wacko: Props to you for hanging in there that long.

24 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

There were a lot of stuff i just found unnecessary and the AOs didnt help either. It took to long to. In short the arc was just like the previous one with some things polished.

In your case, you have to deal with AOs, too—that's worse than someone who just reads the manga and/or just watches the adaptions of the manga cases. Even more props to you for hanging in there from Episode 509–Episode 655 (just under 150 episodes).

24 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

The RUM one is decent, well, its good, but it suffers the same problems as every other arc.

You mean flaws/problems that are characteristic of/unique to Gosho?

24 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

...after the Kir arc... i was waiting for big things. After the clash series... "man things will start to get heated." OK, so hes setting thing for the next thing and setting and setting and more setting.

But this long run is so long. I mean you would think that after all these years more mysteries would have been reveled, but he keeps piling them on ( its unsatisfying ).

So the resolution of this "setting and setting" and "more mysteries" has just taken too long—it's likely the reveals won't be worth your waiting time, right?

Balthazar Manfredie · January 7, 2017

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

So, basically, it started to be a drag in the late 780s, nearly 170 Files into the Bourbon arc... and then there was 100 more Files of you waiting for it to end. Props to you for hanging in there that long.

In your case, you have to deal with AOs, too—that's worse than someone who just reads the manga and/or just watches the adaptions of the manga cases. Even more props to you for hanging in there from Episode 509–Episode 655 (just under 150 episodes).

You mean flaws/problems that are characteristic of/unique to Gosho?

So the resolution of this "setting and setting" and "more mysteries" has just taken too long—it's likely the reveals won't be worth your waiting time, right?

1. Well

The, lets call it the first half of the arc, had like good bad good bad good bad stuff. So i could live with it. Not always something i liked but half and half was better then later on. Lets face it anything that lasts this long loses its magic. After and with Holmes where more of the bad, came then the video site and then came mmmmmh

2. I used to love the AOs right up until the kir arc. Sure there have been some horrible ones but that could be overlooked (at that time).later on it was like do you even care. And i HATE THE ONES WITH ANIMALS. Not with goro, he is nice.

3. Yes

Cause if you do the same thing for over 20 years it gonna loose the crowd.

And that was why i had a lot of love for Toriyama who did DB/Z. Cause he knew there was no point in going beyond Buu. It was so well done (and i like the buu saga cause it gave a decent ending for how long that great thing ladted). Dragon ball super is so bad. Its like lets make no sense whatsoever and put it out (just mi opinion).

4. You know when you mom is making your favorite food and you are so happy (in my case meat pie) but it took longer to make for some reason. And when its served you, well lets face it you will eat it, but it doesnt teste like you thought it would.

Thats how i feel. I still think he puts out good mysteries. But its not the same feel for it like it was before, in my case, bourbon. And RUM is also the same. Granted there have been better thungs there but its the same.

Sorry bout this type of writing.

The ohone is limited

DCUniverseAficionado · January 7, 2017

52 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

The, lets call it the first half of the arc, had like good bad good bad good bad stuff. So i could live with it. Not always something i liked but half and half was better then later on. Lets face it anything that lasts this long loses its magic. After and with Holmes where more of the bad, came then the video site and then came mmmmmh

So if the Bourbon arc had ended before the "second half," would the series have avoided what you saw as its biggest decline, up to where we are, now?

2 hours ago, Neo Balthazar said:

...if you do the same thing for over 20 years it gonna loose the crowd.

Well, DC's doing pretty well for itself for a 23 year old series. Some are even saddened (look at the crowd reaction to such a question during his Singapore Q&A) by the prospect of DC ending. So, certainly, a contingent of the fandom is going to leave, as the years go by, if they are of the opinion that not only is DC dragging, but its execution of such protraction is dragging.

2 hours ago, Neo Balthazar said:

You know when you mom is making your favorite food and you are so happy (in my case meat pie) but it took longer to make for some reason. And when its served you, well lets face it you will eat it, but it doesnt teste like you thought it would.

Thats how i feel. I still think he puts out good mysteries. But its not the same feel for it like it was before, in my case, bourbon. And RUM is also the same. Granted there have been better thungs there but its the same.

Sorry bout this type of writing.

The ohone is limited

Underwhelming, basically?

So there's not even a slight chance that, when Gosho finally does the climax, you'd actually get the feeling you'd get during the good old days of DC (94 or 97 to 03 to 07), again? To put it another way, do you think there's no way for him to live up to the expectation people will have for the finale, even if he brings his A+ game?

Nah, it's fine—if anything, I'm the odd one out, in terms of how I type my posts.

Balthazar Manfredie · January 7, 2017

6 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

So if the Bourbon arc had ended before the "second half," would the series have avoided what you saw as its biggest decline, up to where we are, now?

Well, DC's doing pretty well for itself for a 23 year old series. Some are even saddened (look at the crowd reaction to such a question during his Singapore Q&A) by the prospect of DC ending. So, certainly, a contingent of the fandom is going to leave, as the years go by, if they are of the opinion that not only is DC dragging, but its execution of such protraction is dragging.

Underwhelming, basically?

So there's not even a slight chance that, when Gosho finally does the climax, you'd actually get the feeling you'd get during the good old days of DC (94 or 97 to 03 to 07), again? To put it another way, do you think there's no way for him to live up to the expectation people will have for the finale, even if he brings his A+ game?

Nah, it's fine—if anything, I'm the odd one out, in terms of how I type my posts.

I dont know. Maybe. If Gosho didnt take that way, then what way could he have taken. Other then dont do the Bourbon arc and go straight to RUM. Also i did notice that some of his cases there have been simillar to the cases he had done beffore (i posted that somewhere )

And i get it. Its hard to come up a case. Im not gonna hold him for that.

I do agree there

Some will leave and come come back when news comes out that it is coming to an end like naruto. Some are here from start to finish. And also there are like new kids every day finding out about it and watching it, but might not liking where its going or love where its going.

Yes,it is underwhelming to some degree.

He most likely will bring his A game and if it goes as great as one would hope then i would be somewhat happy. Not like i would gave been 4 years ago. But my love for it will go down even more as the years go by.

Also i would have wanted if things went with the BO a bit diff then the usual. And no one in the FBI questions why a kid was with them. He could have searched around in piscos personal life a bit. Its not like everyone he knew was BO, he must have talked to someone and let something slip. Make haibara tell you stuff. There could have been much more "creative" ways then what we have been accustomed to see.

I find them neat and well organized

DCUniverseAficionado · January 7, 2017

On 1/7/2017 at 0:51 AM, Neo Balthazar said:

I dont know. Maybe. If Gosho didnt take that way, then what way could he have taken. Other then dont do the Bourbon arc and go straight to RUM.

Another way would be to tackle all the things from each arc simultaneously—for example, have characters introduced in the Rum arc introduced in the Intro/Conan arc, and have multiple major mysteries running parallel to each other (and these are suggestions I can think of, at the moment):

Do what Episode One did, in terms of introducing certain characters (i.e., Hidemi/Rena/Kir, Chianti and Korn)—and I say certain characters because you have to be careful with spoilers.
- To speak on spoilers for a moment—if characters from, say, the Kir arc and the Bourbon arc are introduced as early as the first 175 Files/128 Episodes, then you can't do what Episode One did (i.e., show Bourbon's face, or clearly reveal that Vermouth is not Jodie, and that Jodie and Shuichi are both FBI, like in that scene at the end).
Introduce the other Tokyo MPD characters earlier
Introduce the Nagano PD characters earlier
Introduce Heiji earlier, and have Kazuha appear with him
Introduce Tomoaki earlier
Introduce Eisuke earlier
Introduce Shukichi, Masumi and Mary earlier
Have the who is Vermouth (Jodie or Tomoaki) plot going on while Eisuke is present
Have the Boss' phone number plot going on alongside the Koji Haneda plot

One could also take plot/character development elements from one case and combine them with another case (again, these are suggestions I can think of, at the moment):

Have Hidemi/Rena/Kir be directly involved the TV Station Murder Case (102–104/31), and have that be a setup for Black Impact and reveal some of the information that will come during the Kir arc portion of events.
Having the events of 341–343/277–278, with Jodie, Heiji and Shinichi/Conan lead right into the events of 361–365/291–293.
Having Shinichi's/Conan's observations about Mary and Shiho/Ai from both 939–941/843–844 and 942–944/847–848 be in either 928–930/827–828 or 951–953.

On 1/7/2017 at 0:51 AM, Neo Balthazar said:

Also i would have wanted if things went with the BO a bit diff then the usual. And no one in the FBI questions why a kid was with them. He could have searched around in piscos personal life a bit. Its not like everyone he knew was BO, he must have talked to someone and let something slip. Make haibara tell you stuff. There could have been much more "creative" ways then what we have been given all the time.

Like the Whereabouts of the Dark Photograph case in the Kir arc (582–584/484–485), right?

I'm sure she knows a heck of a lot about the BO, but is holding back because she thinks Shinichi/Conan will take it and get himself killed—she doesn't think her knowledge, alone, would be enough to bring him down.

Balthazar Manfredie · January 7, 2017

5 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Another way would be to tackle all the things from each arc simultaneously—for example, have characters introduced in the Rum arc introduced in the Intro/Conan arc, and have multiple major mysteries running parallel to each other (and these are suggestions I can think of, at the moment):

Do what Episode One did, in terms of introducing certain characters (i.e., Hidemi/Rena/Kir, Chianti and Korn)—and I say certain characters because you have to be careful with spoilers.
To speak on spoilers for a moment—if characters from, say, the Kir arc and the Bourbon arc are introduced as early as the first 175 Files/128 Episodes, then you can't do what Episode One did (i.e., show Bourbon's face, or clearly reveal that Vermouth is not Jodie, and that Jodie and Shuichi are both FBI, like in that scene at the end).

Introduce the other Tokyo MPD characters earlier

Introduce Tomoaki earlier

Introduce Heiji earlier, and have Kazuha appear with him

Have the who is Vermouth (Jodie or Tomoaki) plot going on while Eisuke is present

Have the Boss' phone number plot going on alongside the Koji Haneda plot

One could also take plot/character development elements from one case and combine them with another case (again, these are suggestions I can think of, at the moment):

Have Hidemi/Rena/Kir be directly involved the TV Station Murder Case (102–104/31), and have that be a setup for Black Impact and reveal some of the information that will come during the Kir arc portion of events.

Having the events of 341–343/277–278, with Jodie, Heiji and Shinichi/Conan lead right into the events of 361–365/291–293.

Having Shinichi's/Conan's observations about Mary and Shiho/Ai from both 939–941/843–844 and 942–944/847–848 be in either 928–930/827–828 or 951–953.

Like the Whereabouts of the Dark Photograph case in the Kir arc (582–584/484–485), right?

I'm sure she knows a heck of a lot about the BO, but is holding back because she thinks Shinichi/Conan will take it and get himself killed—she doesn't think her knowledge, alone, would be enough to bring him down.

Man those are some great ideas, i never gave it that much thought.

I also love he multiple arcs crossed into one

Really really great ideas

Yes, just like the dark photograph. That one is my third top investigation regarding any info on the BO.

Right behind The Chris/Vermouth one and contact with the BO.

I get that, but this is fiction and the writer, clever as he is, can come up with something to protect him just in case.

DCUniverseAficionado · January 8, 2017

13 hours ago, Neo Balthazar said:

Man those are some great ideas, i never gave it that much thought.

I also love he multiple arcs crossed into one

Really really great ideas

Keep in mind, I'll probably update that post with new ideas.

13 hours ago, Neo Balthazar said:

I get that, but this is fiction and the writer, clever as he is, can come up with something to protect him just in case.

Right—let's see...

Maybe Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai have an agreement—maybe she's agreed to tell him a certain thing or two about the BO (and he insisted she not tell him the obvious that he could've deduced—rather, he's looking for specific points of information he can actually act upon, if not in a manner befitting Reunion with the Black Organization (238–242/176–178) or Contact with the Black Organization (380–383/309–311), then in close range. In return, Shiho/Ai will either want in on his action (like in Reunion), perhaps because because she'll tell him about info relating to APTX, or she'll want him to have a cool down period of not going after the BO, after the action is over, and will punish him by lengthening his wait for info should he get too zealous, for her taste.

Alternatively, Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai could have a bi-weekly or monthly competition—it can be about anything (including masquerading as a school project, even), and the winner will get what they want, in terms of getting and using information to take action against the BO. So, naturally, Shinichi/Conan will want to do just that, should he win. Should Shiho/Ai win, however, he has to back off, and tell her about all the things he did behind her back (especially given his lack of communication with her, post-Kir arc, and especially post-Mystery Train (post-818–824/701–704)).

Of course, either Shiho/Ai will not know who the Boss/Anokata is... or how about this? Maybe she has some idea—some stories to tell—that Shinichi/Conan can then deduce the Boss'/Anokata's identity from... and like with what she told him about Rum, it may not be enough info to figure out who they are, on its own... but it would be more for him (and us) to go on than ever before.

Balthazar Manfredie · January 8, 2017

3 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Keep in mind, I'll probably update that post with new ideas.

Right—let's see...

Maybe Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai have an agreement—maybe she's agreed to tell him a certain thing or two about the BO (and he insisted she not tell him the obvious that he could've deduced—rather, he's looking for specific points of information he can actually act upon, if not in a manner befitting Reunion with the Black Organization (238–242/176–178) or Contact with the Black Organization (380–383/309–311), then in close range. In return, Shiho/Ai will either want in on his action (like in Reunion), perhaps because because she'll tell him about info relating to APTX, or she'll want him to have a cool down period of not going after the BO, after the action is over, and will punish him by lengthening his wait for info should he get too zealous, for her taste.

Alternatively, Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai could have a bi-weekly or monthly competition—it can be about anything (including masquerading as a school project, even), and the winner will get what they want, in terms of getting and using information to take action against the BO. So, naturally, Shinichi/Conan will want to do just that, should he win. Should Shiho/Ai win, however, he has to back off, and tell her about all the things he did behind her back (especially given his lack of communication with her, post-Kir arc, and especially post-Mystery Train (post-818–824/701–704)).

Of course, either Shiho/Ai will not know who the Boss/Anokata is... or how about this? Maybe she has some idea—some stories to tell—that Shinichi/Conan can then deduce the Boss'/Anokata's identity from... and like with what she told him about Rum, it may not be enough info to figure out who they are, on its own... but it would be more for him (and us) to go on than ever before.

sure, great ideas are appreciated

well, in this case left out

subtle but efficient

and the problem is communication and trust

i mean have they not proven themselves to each other by now

im sure she is holding a lot of stories for herself

they could be like nothing to do with them, could be a spark that triggers a lot of thing

this is good stuff

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 9, 2017

I think the pacing in Bourbon arc was not well planned, and the new arc characters were introduced in a way that didn't maximize their story impact, especially in the long term. The Bourbon arc should have been about 100 chapters shorter. There was a lot of padding from Okiya's intro to Bourbon's intro. There were also some parts where the plot cases piled up almost one after another, that while totally hype from our perspective, could have been paced out with randoms without losing too much intensity. (V75-77)

Bourbon also came in too late IMO. It would have really taken pressure off of him as a suspect if he did more innocent apprenticing with Kogoro, or didn't try to become Kogoro's apprentice right away but kept "coincidentally" running into him.

Masumi never really felt like a viable Bourbon suspect compared to Okiya and Amuro. Kuroda should have come in earlier in my opinion to be the third/fourth suspect after Matsumoto's scar case, menaced in the background, and then played a role in Amuro trying to showdown with Okiya in the second half. (Assuming Gosho had planned Kuroda out back then.) It would have been a sort of James Black in the Vermouth arc situation again, which I thought was a fun move back then and not too overdone.

I marked the Bourbon arc in the poll, but I don't know if the decline of quality in permanent. I don't really like the Akai family subplot. Until shrunken Mary and Tsutomu came in after X00 chapters, it failed to create feelings of tension or deep mystery. To compare just prior arcs, the Kir arc was a much stronger "family mystery" with a lot more emotion thanks to Eisuke, and the cellphone arc managed a pretty decent feeling of deep mystery even though it was just Conan being haunted by a sound he can't quite pin down.

One of the most egregious points to me was the disconnect between how much Gosho expected people to care about Masumi's middle brother and how much people actually felt it was important. Midbro wasn't in danger or have interesting backstory to contribute, he just leeched off Masumi's character by being the real brains behind her. The meeting with Masumi in the past was also pretty underwhelming, which was sad. I really wanted that case to focus on Masumi interacting with Shinichi and Ran, especially her with Shinichi. Shuukichi and Mary also deserved more attention too since they are the new people. Shuuichi stole all the spotlight though, which was a disappointment. I think that should have been a double case, 6 chapters, to give more time for characters to show off.

I don't view the Rum arc as hopeless. With shrunken Mary, Tsutomu's disappearance, and the potential for Elena reappear in the plot, there might be some stronger points coming.

MeiTanteixX · January 9, 2017

9 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I think the pacing in Bourbon arc was not well planned, and the new arc characters were introduced in a way that didn't maximize their story impact, especially in the long term. The Bourbon arc should have been about 100 chapters shorter. There was a lot of padding from Okiya's intro to Bourbon's intro. There were also some parts where the plot cases piled up almost one after another, that while totally hype from our perspective, could have been paced out with randoms without losing too much intensity. (V75-77)

Bourbon also came in too late IMO. It would have really taken pressure off of him as a suspect if he did more innocent apprenticing with Kogoro, or didn't try to become Kogoro's apprentice right away but kept "coincidentally" running into him.

Masumi never really felt like a viable Bourbon suspect compared to Okiya and Amuro. Kuroda should have come in earlier in my opinion to be the third/fourth suspect after Matsumoto's scar case, menaced in the background, and then played a role in Amuro trying to showdown with Okiya in the second half. (Assuming Gosho had planned Kuroda out back then.) It would have been a sort of James Black in the Vermouth arc situation again, which I thought was a fun move back then and not too overdone.

I marked the Bourbon arc in the poll, but I don't know if the decline of quality in permanent. I don't really like the Akai family subplot. Until shrunken Mary and Tsutomu came in after X00 chapters, it failed to create feelings of tension or deep mystery. To compare just prior arcs, the Kir arc was a much stronger "family mystery" with a lot more emotion thanks to Eisuke, and the cellphone arc managed a pretty decent feeling of deep mystery even though it was just Conan being haunted by a sound he can't quite pin down.

One of the most egregious points to me was the disconnect between how much Gosho expected people to care about Masumi's middle brother and how much people actually felt it was important. Midbro wasn't in danger or have interesting backstory to contribute, he just leeched off Masumi's character by being the real brains behind her. The meeting with Masumi in the past was also pretty underwhelming, which was sad. I really wanted that case to focus on Masumi interacting with Shinichi and Ran, especially her with Shinichi. Shuukichi and Mary also deserved more attention too since they are the new people. Shuuichi stole all the spotlight though, which was a disappointment. I think that should have been a double case, 6 chapters, to give more time for characters to show off.

I don't view the Rum arc as hopeless. With shrunken Mary, Tsutomu's disappearance, and the potential for Elena reappear in the plot, there might be some stronger points coming.

Everything I bolded is the ones I fully agree on!

DCUniverseAficionado · January 11, 2017

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I think the pacing in Bourbon arc was not well planned, and the new arc characters were introduced in a way that didn't maximize their story impact, especially in the long term.

The Akai family part certainly wasn't in the cards back in '07—had it been, we probably wouldn't have had that year and a half plot break (September '09–February '11), and the Post-Mystery Train part (825–898/705–783) wouldn't have taken 2 years (July '12–June '14).

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

The Bourbon arc should have been about 100 chapters shorter.

It should've been Kir arc length (~120 Files) at the shortest, and probably shorter than Vermouth arc length (150–170 Files) at the longest.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

There was a lot of padding from Okiya's intro to Bourbon's intro.

Shuichi's reintroduction/Subaru's introduction – 622–624/509–511

Rei's/Toru's non Scar-Akai introduction – 793–795/667–668

Gap – ~170 Files/~160 Episodes

Yeah... this was pretty off.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

There were also some parts where the plot cases piled up almost one after another, that while totally hype from our perspective, could have been paced out with randoms without losing too much intensity. (V75-77)

Bourbon also came in too late IMO. It would have really taken pressure off of him as a suspect if he did more innocent apprenticing with Kogoro, or didn't try to become Kogoro's apprentice right away but kept "coincidentally" running into him.

Masumi never really felt like a viable Bourbon suspect compared to Okiya and Amuro.

Bourbon Arc

Act I – 622–704/509–581

Act II – 705–767/582–645

Act III – 768–824/646–704

Act IV – 825–898/705–783

Act III is by far the fastest paced of all the acts (if that's your word choice when you go beyond divvying up the overall story into arcs, and divvy up the arcs, themselves), and, even then, the Bourbon arc is so long, that the acts are, at least, around 60 Files.

Rei/Toru and Masumi should've been introduced in Act I, when Shuichi/Subaru was (re)introduced... they were instead introduced in Act III. Masumi, thanks to her age, appearance and hints that she'd met Shinichi and Ran before—and thus knew who Shinichi/Conan was—was a dead ringer for another younger sibling of an intelligence agent, and so soon after the Kir arc. Thus, it was Shuichi/Subaru Vs. Rei/Toru, in terms of who was Bourbon... and with all those things about Shuichi/Subaru, well... a 203 File/196 Episode wait and a 277 File/275 Episode wait wasn't, to some (or even many), worth the answers to these mysteries.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Kuroda should have come in earlier in my opinion to be the third/fourth suspect after Matsumoto's scar case, menaced in the background, and then played a role in Amuro trying to showdown with Okiya in the second half. (Assuming Gosho had planned Kuroda out back then.) It would have been a sort of James Black in the Vermouth arc situation again, which I thought was a fun move back then and not too overdone.

He could've certainly been introduced in the Red Wall case (682–686/558–561), though this may have lessened him as a suspect, as I presume (due to you comparing him to James) he would've been revealed to be Rei's/Toru's superior at the NPA, thus making him aware of not only Rei's/Toru's true allegiance, but Shuichi's survival, as well—and leaving him with the conclusion that Hidemi/Rena/Kir is, if not a NOC, a traitor to the BO—I find it very unlikely Rum would not take immediate action on both these pieces of knowledge, especially the latter.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I don't really like the Akai family subplot. Until shrunken Mary and Tsutomu came in after X00 chapters, it failed to create feelings of tension or deep mystery.

I personally think she was potentially involved as early as the Adultery case (856–858/740–741), since I see no reason for Masumi to take a picture of Shinichi/Conan, there, unless it was to show to Mary—unless it was a prelude to her showing him a picture of Mary (872–875/754–756).

Thus, we have the non-Mary part of the Akai family subplot only really lasting from Mystery Train to the Adultery case (822–846/703–728)—you can include 768–821/646–702 (the period in which she was a Bourbon suspect), if you really care to—it's not a very long period, in terms of Masumi, if you ask me. Include Shukichi's intro, and it's only 3 Files/2 Episodes more, as the appearance of mid bro's hand comes the case after Mary's earliest potential involvement.

Considering Chikara Katsumasa is one of my top Rum suspects, I expect that to be how Shukichi will be tied into the plot—beyond being the brother of someone who faked his death due to the BO, and the son of someone who ended up like Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai due to the BO—maybe even put in danger, should Chikara Katsumasa turn out to be Rum. But in terms of tension in the Bourbon arc, relating to Shukichi? You're correct in that—and the "mystery?" Forget it. Maybe it should've been him who was kidnapped, instead of Yumi.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

...he just leeched off Masumi's character by being the real brains behind her.

The meeting with Masumi in the past was also pretty underwhelming, which was sad. I really wanted that case to focus on Masumi interacting with Shinichi and Ran, especially her with Shinichi. Shuukichi and Mary also deserved more attention too since they are the new people. Shuuichi stole all the spotlight though, which was a disappointment. I think that should have been a double case, 6 chapters, to give more time for characters to show off.

Eh, in that one case, you can argue.

She is to Shuichi and Shukichi (and Mary, even) what Shinichi is to Yusaku, in terms of why she and Shinichi ended up as smart as they now are.

I'm still waiting for the origins of the "Guess I'm a bad girl, after all" thought (812–814/690–691). Wasn't expecting that case to be so short, either.

On 1/8/2017 at 10:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I don't view the Rum arc as hopeless. With shrunken Mary, Tsutomu's disappearance, and the potential for Elena reappear in the plot, there might be some stronger points coming.

Well, 2016 was a pretty good year for DC (being the year that brought about the latter two points), and we have File 1000 fast approaching (with 998 marking 100 Files since the Rum arc started, bringing us even closer to Kir arc length).

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 12, 2017

On 1/10/2017 at 5:13 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

On 1/8/2017 at 8:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Masumi never really felt like a viable Bourbon suspect compared to Okiya and Amuro. Kuroda should have come in earlier in my opinion to be the third/fourth suspect after Matsumoto's scar case, menaced in the background, and then played a role in Amuro trying to showdown with Okiya in the second half. (Assuming Gosho had planned Kuroda out back then.) It would have been a sort of James Black in the Vermouth arc situation again, which I thought was a fun move back then and not too overdone.

He could've certainly been introduced in the Red Wall case (682–686/558–561), though this may have lessened him as a suspect, as I presume (due to you comparing him to James) he would've been revealed to be Rei's/Toru's superior at the NPA, thus making him aware of not only Rei's/Toru's true allegiance, but Shuichi's survival, as well—and leaving him with the conclusion that Hidemi/Rena/Kir is, if not a NOC, a traitor to the BO—I find it very unlikely Rum would not take immediate action on both these pieces of knowledge, especially the latter.

Eh, Gosho could have definitely had Kuroda pull double duty first as a Bourbon suspect and then had him menace as a potential double agent in the Rum arc. It's definitely not the first time Gosho has run arc suspects who know secret identities and should have acted on it. He'd have been just as believable as Masumi if not more so. Kuroda's practically been ruined as a suspect in the Rum arc already; Haibara already looked into his face and explicitly said he was just scary not BO smelly.

On 1/10/2017 at 5:13 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

On 1/8/2017 at 8:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I don't really like the Akai family subplot. Until shrunken Mary and Tsutomu came in after X00 chapters, it failed to create feelings of tension or deep mystery.

I personally think she was potentially involved as early as the Adultery case (856–858/740–741), since I see no reason for Masumi to take a picture of Shinichi/Conan, there, unless it was to show to Mary—unless it was a prelude to her showing him a picture of Mary (872–875/754–756).

You are trying to look back on the Bourbon arc and the Akai family mystery with current knowledge. I am speaking of it from the perspective we had while slogging through the middle of it, when we were basically told: "this random family stuff matters, but you'll have to wait and find out why." I hate when authors do that. I feel like I have been transformed into an obedient dog and my patronizing master has ordered me to sit and wait; if I am patient and behave (and part with more of my time and money) he will give me a treat. It's hardly just Gosho doing this. I'd like to get my dig in at Robert Galbraith, aka Joanne Rowling, and the The Cuckoo's Calling which had one of the most draggy and low-investment intros I'd ever had the patience to drudge through.

Back to Gosho, let me explain in detail why the Akai family plot interim waiting period was terrible. Sera's sense of threat peaked soon after her intro. The mystery train confirmed what many had suspected, she was Shuuichi's sister and not a threat to Conan, and she had no idea what was going on with the fake death or the BO, and thus had no interesting connections to events there. Her sense of threat, which was waning as the train case approached, bottomed out. What was left open was how she knew Conan, and if it mattered to future plots, and if she could be used as leverage by Bourbon to get at Shuuichi. How she knew Conan was strongly hinted very early post train: she had an encounter with Conan and Ran as a child. There were no clues to suggest the eventual flashback would be plot developing. That dead-ended her character's interesting plot points pretty much, except for the middle brother. All that was left was to wait to see if she got entangled in anything to do with Bourbon and Okiya. Nope. She was completely left out of Bourbon's showdown with Okiya.

And next point, the middle brother. There was (and still is 180 chapters later) absolutely no sign that the middle brother mattered to any plot more than tangentially, or to any of the main characters, as a hunter or hunted individual. As readers, we were given no incentives to figure out who he is. So what if he is an Akai? Why does he matter? True, we have guessed he will matter eventually because of genre conventions, but that's sloppy plot setup. Mysteries should be designed to invest the reader immediately and compel them to continue rather than start weak and promise delayed gratification.

On 1/10/2017 at 5:13 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Considering Chikara Katsumasa is one of my top Rum suspects, I expect that to be how Shukichi will be tied into the plot—beyond being the brother of someone who faked his death due to the BO, and the son of someone who ended up like Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai due to the BO—maybe even put in danger, should Chikara Katsumasa turn out to be Rum. But in terms of tension in the Bourbon arc, relating to Shukichi? You're correct in that—and the "mystery?" Forget it. Maybe it should've been him who was kidnapped, instead of Yumi.

Me too, because mystery genre conventions. Chikara Katsumasa's a kinda innocent dude whose shown up, not done a whole lot other than hang around in the background around someone who will probably be plot relevant, and has potential for connections to earlier plot events (a chess match in America). He also hasn't been ruled out in my vision statistical test which helps.

I'm already tired of waiting for clues that there is an active and plot changing threat. The biggest sense of active threat right now is the BO sending a crack team of trolls to knock websites related to the Kohji case offline (assuming they are the ones doing it), and freaking out about anything named ASACA. Even then, the BO's actions seem more like an extension of clean-up efforts that would have started 17 years ago rather than a new development that will entangle anyone Conan or the audience is invested in. We have Rum's name, but no hints of his direction. We have Mary, who is shrunken and switching hotels, but no signs she is being hunted rather than paranoid.

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe there maybe someone's life is deeply in danger behind the scenes, they are being chased, and the BO is closing in. Excitement abounds. But we the readers don't know about it. The threats are vague and undirected. No one's picture has a dart through it on a dartboard. And that stinks.

On 1/10/2017 at 5:13 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

On 1/8/2017 at 8:54 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

The meeting with Masumi in the past was also pretty underwhelming, which was sad. I really wanted that case to focus on Masumi interacting with Shinichi and Ran, especially her with Shinichi. Shuukichi and Mary also deserved more attention too since they are the new people. Shuuichi stole all the spotlight though, which was a disappointment. I think that should have been a double case, 6 chapters, to give more time for characters to show off.

Eh, in that one case, you can argue.

I'm still waiting for the origins of the "Guess I'm a bad girl, after all" thought (812–814/690–691). Wasn't expecting that case to be so short, either.

No, that case was really about Masumi, and that it wasn't is a huge mistake. Masumi's character had been building to this moment. Her relation to Akai had been proven, but her motive for coming close to Shinichi was finally going to come out. All those hints about her affection for Shinichi, and how he left such a deep impression on Masumi to became an idol worthy of the title Wizard. Shinichi, Ran, and Masumi could have tried to solve an almost magical case together, with Shuukichi looking after them and the rest of the Akai family moving in the background to help out. Ran and Masumi could have had a cute jealous moment. Nope. We got Shuuichi acting like an ice cold b*tch while hogging the spotlight. Stupid choice IMO.

DCUniverseAficionado · January 12, 2017

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Eh, Gosho could have definitely had Kuroda pull double duty first as a Bourbon suspect and then had him menace as a potential double agent in the Rum arc. It's definitely not the first time Gosho has run arc suspects who know secret identities and should have acted on it. He'd have been just as believable as Masumi if not more so. Kuroda's practically been ruined as a suspect in the Rum arc already; Haibara already looked into his face and explicitly said he was just scary not BO smelly.

I certainly wouldn't mind him being one of the first characters (if not the first character) to be a suspect for the titular character of one arc, then to be a suspect for the titular character of another arc (subsequent arc or otherwise). While I think it'd be inevitable that pesky thing about him knowing true allegiances and secret identities would put him lower on the totem pole, in terms of who's the most likely suspect(s), I think his presence in the Bourbon Arc could really only help, not harm/hinder—it would provide more connections between the arcs, and better tie them together.

Actually, he could still be Rum—all it would require is that accident that put him in a coma to have made him forgot what young Shiho looked like. What Shiho/Ai said in that scene from File 925/Episode 822 carries the implication that Rum would know what she looked like—that a certain accident only removed Rum's eye, not Rum's memory, as well. Believe me, I don't think he's going to turn out to be Rum—right now, he's not so high on my totem pole, in terms of who's the most likely suspect—but should he turn out to be, I could safely say that scene from File 925/Episode 822 didn't eliminate him from my list of Rum suspects, as I'm sure it did for others' lists. I think it's unwise to take that scene as definitive as you seem to be taking it—I find it unlikely that Gosho, before the resolution of an arc and the reveal of the identity of its titular character, would introduce a suspect and then rule him out within 15 Files/15 Episodes if their introduction. If anything, this is another issue created by Gosho's penchant for dangling plot threads—apart from that reference to him in File 925/Episode 822, we had to wait around 60 Files, after File 920, to see him, again.

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

You are trying to look back on the Bourbon arc and the Akai family mystery with current knowledge.

Yeah... that's hindsight bias, on my part—20/20 vision makes it a whole lot easier to look back.

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Sera's sense of threat peaked soon after her intro. The mystery train confirmed what many had suspected, she was Shuuichi's sister and not a threat to Conan, and she had no idea what was going on with the fake death or the BO, and thus had no interesting connections to events there. Her sense of threat, which was waning as the train case approached, bottomed out. What was left open was how she knew Conan, and if it mattered to future plots, and if she could be used as leverage by Bourbon to get at Shuuichi. How she knew Conan was strongly hinted very early post train: she had an encounter with Conan and Ran as a child. There were no clues to suggest the eventual flashback would be plot developing. That dead-ended her character's interesting plot points pretty much, except for the middle brother. All that was left was to wait to see if she got entangled in anything to do with Bourbon and Okiya. Nope. She was completely left out of Bourbon's showdown with Okiya.

And next point, the middle brother. There was (and still is 180 chapters later) absolutely no sign that the middle brother mattered to any plot more than tangentially, or to any of the main characters, as a hunter or hunted individual. As readers, we were given no incentives to figure out who he is. So what if he is an Akai? Why does he matter? True, we have guessed he will matter eventually because of genre conventions, but that's sloppy plot setup. Mysteries should be designed to invest the reader immediately and compel them to continue rather than start weak and promise delayed gratification.

Hence why she should've been introduced in the 620s–630s/510s, not introduced in the 760s–770s/640s—same goes for Rei/Toru.

Eh, I don't think Masumi's completely unaware of the BO—she must've known who Mary meant when she said, in File 952, "they get information about Koji Haneda, and arrive, as well." It's not like we're assuming she had an impassive reaction to her mother suddenly being 12–15. It's not as if we're assuming she was completely clueless as to why her family was moving about, or clueless as to why she and her mother keep switching hotels. If Mary knows anything about the BO—more than Masumi—it's because she'll turn out to be Elena's sister, and is keeping info from Masumi, like Shinichi/Conan keeps info from Shiho/Ai. At the very least, Masumi probably knows that secretive criminals were behind the apparent death of her father, and her mother being shrunk. Again, unless, Elena told Mary about some of the BO's structures, she knows nothing about that, unless she heard something when she was attacked and shrunk.

You mean aside from, "Oh, this is a case that's been at least alluded to for 200 Files—and with Shuichi's family coming into plot prominence since Masumi's debut, it must be plot developing."

She should've been more involved in Mystery Train, and actually involved in Scarlet Showdown. In the former case, it would've opened more options for Shinichi/Conan to deal with that situation, instead of relying on Kaito/Kid II, who just happened to be there—I think it would've made far more sense if she helped to fake Shiho's/Sherry's death than Kaito/Kid II doing so. And she shouldn't have been the only one who should've been involved in Scarlet Showdown—Shukichi and Mary should've been involved, as well. After all, the post-Mystery Train part of the Bourbon arc focused on them.

And your example of this done right in DC? When immediate investment and the urge to continue met?

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Me too, because mystery genre conventions. Chikara Katsumasa's a kinda innocent dude whose shown up, not done a whole lot other than hang around in the background around someone who will probably be plot relevant, and has potential for connections to earlier plot events (a chess match in America). He also hasn't been ruled out in my vision statistical test which helps.

And that's another sign of "sloppy plot setup," right? If so, how could Gosho have avoided this?

He appeared immediately after Scarlet Showdown (said appearance landed him on the keyhole of Volume 85), then showed up, again, around 50 Files later. Unfortunately, those two appearances just don't provide enough data. Even Kanenori has more data for analysis than he does.

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I'm already tired of waiting for clues that there is an active and plot changing threat. The biggest sense of active threat right now is the BO sending a crack team of trolls to knock websites related to the Kohji case offline (assuming they are the ones doing it), and freaking out about anything named ASACA. Even then, the BO's actions seem more like an extension of clean-up efforts that would have started 17 years ago rather than a new development that will entangle anyone Conan or the audience is invested in. We have Rum's name, but no hints of his direction. We have Mary, who is shrunken and switching hotels, but no signs she is being hunted rather than paranoid.

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe there maybe someone's life is deeply in danger behind the scenes, they are being chased, and the BO is closing in. Excitement abounds. But we the readers don't know about it. The threats are vague and undirected. No one's picture has a dart through it on a dartboard. And that stinks.

Cause we already know, right? We want to move onto what this threat is going to do, right?

So it's gotten too mysterious for too long—we've been kept out of it for too long—and, at this point, we're like Graham Chapman, yelling, "Get on with it!... GET ON WITH IT!!!"

8 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

No, that case was really about Masumi, and that it wasn't is a huge mistake. Masumi's character had been building to this moment. Her relation to Akai had been proven, but her motive for coming close to Shinichi was finally going to come out. All those hints about her affection for Shinichi, and how he left such a deep impression on Masumi to became an idol worthy of the title Wizard. Shinichi, Ran, and Masumi could have tried to solve an almost magical case together, with Shuukichi looking after them and the rest of the Akai family moving in the background to help out. Ran and Masumi could have had a cute jealous moment. Nope. We got Shuuichi acting like an ice cold b*tch while hogging the spotlight. Stupid choice IMO.

The end of 974 seemed to indicate that she didn't call him that because he made "ice cold b*tch" Shuichi laugh, but I don't know—maybe Shinichi/Conan is being slow, again, like he's been with this whole Akai family thing. But, if not, then I guess we still have a chance to figure out why... but even if we eventually do, we didn't get to see it in the flashback case when it was actually happening, in September, 2016.

Yeah, robbers accidentally driving their car into the sea isn't too magical. Though, at least in theory, one has the potential to turn that not so magical premise into so much more, right?

Don't forget Yusaku, and him going, "Even I can't solve this case with just pictu— ...... " We know all about Yusaku and Shuichi and how smart they are. What about Mary, Shukichi and Masumi? Not nearly as much action and character as they should've gotten, right?

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 12, 2017

8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

17 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

... but that's sloppy plot setup. Mysteries should be designed to invest the reader immediately and compel them to continue rather than start weak and promise delayed gratification.

And your example of this done right in DC? When immediate investment and the urge to continue met?

For sure, the Kir and Vermouth arcs started this way.

The Kir arc was perhaps the fastest arc to do this. It opens with the most action-packed showdown with the BO since the Hyde City Hotel and the brand new BO agent Mizunashi Rena, codename Kir, gets captured by the FBI. Three files later, Ran mentions a transfer student that looks like Rena is enrolling in Teitan. And in the next case the Rena clone, "Hondou Eisuke", pops in Mouri's office and gets all up in the detective agency's business with some probing questions. BO agent? Sibling? Both? What's his angle and why get close to Ran and the Mouri Detective agency? Eisuke continues to establish himself as suspicious quickly after this. The premise starts quick. You are already invested by the time Kir's backstory comes under question and we find out about the BO's efforts to recover her.

Vermouth's arc started with the first BO showdown of the manga, involved a temporary antidote and Shiho prominently, and ended with this new lady BO agent sitting in Gin's car indicating she wanted to stay behind in Japan for reasons. Uh-oh! Desperate Revival, although interesting to Vermouth's plot, was not obviously related at the time, so I'm going to ignore it. The next known Vermouth-related case was "Battle Game Trap" ~30 files later where Jodie used Vermouth's trademark line. "The Mysterious Passenger", 15 files after "Battle Game Trap", was in many ways the file that really set the Vermouth arc on fire. We find out 1) Vermouth is a disguise artist (and who knows who she was before now!), 2) we confirm she is looking for someone and meeting with Gin, 3) Haibara confirms that Vermouth is on the bus setting up the three major suspects (Jodie, Araide, Akai), 4) Vermouth already knows "Cool Guy" Conan is a genius and is observing his anti-bus-jacker plan with interest so she's got something personal there.

45 files in and we have the full premise: an amazing BO disguise artist is hunting someone, likely Shiho, and she's maybe picked a disguise of someone close to Conan. Oh yeah, she knows Conan is a genius and thus undoubtedly be compensating for him with her plan. Go find her!

The Bourbon arc, if we consider it starting with Kir's message to Jodie in File 622, opened with the reveal of a new Detective-like BO member named Bourbon who is on the move, Okiya's introduction, Haibara's fear of him, and his move into Kudo's house. That's certainly a premise to become invested in, but the arc took it's freaking sweet time developing it. It took 55 files for Scar Akai to show up and add to events, and 20 on top of that for additional information to come out about Bourbon's activities in the 13 red shirts case.

The Rum arc, while getting the info ball rolling faster than Bourbon's, doesn't have a clean start and has instead been focusing on developing past connections rather than an active threat. We have a BO agent's name and description (which is an incentive to look for him), but no firm indications of activity. Shrunken Mary, introduced in the Bourbon arc, is certainly part of the premise and interesting as a likely APTX victim, but she's not firmly connected to anything actively-developing yet. Mary's relation to Shiho and Elena hasn't yet bore fruit. We have some Rum suspects, and most are close to the main characters, but without knowing Rum's angle it's hard to assign them a sense of threat. (Compare Vermouth, where we knew she was hunting someone by the time three suspects were announced.) The 17-years-ago Kohji case seems to be a major point, introduced ~45 files into the arc, but other than being a sore point for Rum and the BO, it's unclear how it's affecting things beyond making the BO investigate ASACA things.

So far for 80 files, the Rum arc has basically been in info dump mode, and we are awaiting the reveal of a current threat which will start tying unconnected issues together. It's not all bad, but it's not what I would call a well planned start.

8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

DCUniverseAficionado: Eh, I don't think Masumi's completely unaware of the BO—she must've known who Mary meant when she said, in File 952, "they get information about Koji Haneda, and arrive, as well." It's not like we're assuming she had an impassive reaction to her mother suddenly being 12–15. It's not as if we're assuming she was completely clueless as to why her family was moving about, or clueless as to why she and her mother keep switching hotels. If Mary knows anything about the BO—more than Masumi—it's because she'll turn out to be Elena's sister, and is keeping info from Masumi, like Shinichi/Conan keeps info from Shiho/Ai. At the very least, Masumi probably knows that secretive criminals were behind the apparent death of her father, and her mother being shrunk. Again, unless, Elena told Mary about some of the BO's structures, she knows nothing about that, unless she heard something when she was attacked and shrunk.

I really would not over-estimate the information sharing going on between Mary and Masumi. It's almost non-existent in Gosho-land and especially among the Akais.

Super Digest Book 80+ Gosho Interview:

Q67: Does Sera know about the Black Org?
A: She doesn't know.

I'm sure Sera can make some guesses, but she really has shown no firm indications she knows anything specific about the BO. Regarding her father's disappearance, until it is shown that she knows a single specific detail about her father, I'm not going to make any speculations at all that she was told anything. Yes, I am super cynical about info sharing.

8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

17 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Chekhov MacGuffin: Me too, because mystery genre conventions. Chikara Katsumasa's a kinda innocent dude whose shown up, not done a whole lot other than hang around in the background around someone who will probably be plot relevant, and has potential for connections to earlier plot events (a chess match in America). He also hasn't been ruled out in my vision statistical test which helps.

And that's another sign of "sloppy plot setup," right? If so, how could Gosho have avoided this?

That is not sloppy in the same sense I am saying Gosho's failure to design and order plot events in the Akai Family subplot so they develop and maintain a sense of jeopardy, relevance to other plots, or impact is sloppy.

Designing a mystery and the suspects in a way so that those experienced with the genre will have difficulty is a "meta writing issue", while designing a plot so that it has an early and strong impact is more of a "fundamental writing issue." It's more important to attend to the fundamentals than hit the meta problems. And to be sure, it's hard to address meta issues because you have limited time and limited suspects, and sometimes you just need to do your thing because you need to achieve the fundamentals.

The easiest way to game the meta is to buck your past trends and tropes. Gosho certainly uses recurring tropes which are exploitable.

A higher level strategy is to "clear" a suspect via a secondary case and have some entirely innocent backstory come out. People tend to put a character out of mind when they are "resolved", and don't suspect a person may have layers. For instance Koumei and Yonehara Sakurako are two characters in the resolved state, because both have been cleared through a case(s) and had some backstory come out. I don't think either of them are Rum because they appear to have fully decent vision, but it would be a pretty twisty twist for the savvy fandom if one of them turned out to be Rum.

DCUniverseAficionado · January 13, 2017

21 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

For sure, the Kir and Vermouth arcs started this way.

The Kir arc was perhaps the fastest arc to do this. It opens with the most action-packed showdown with the BO since the Hyde City Hotel and the brand new BO agent Mizunashi Rena, codename Kir, gets captured by the FBI. Three files later, Ran mentions a transfer student that looks like Rena is enrolling in Teitan. And in the next case the Rena clone, "Hondou Eisuke", pops in Mouri's office and gets all up in the detective agency's business with some probing questions. BO agent? Sibling? Both? What's his angle and why get close to Ran and the Mouri Detective agency? Eisuke continues to establish himself as suspicious quickly after this. The premise starts quick. You are already invested by the time Kir's backstory comes under question and we find out about the BO's efforts to recover her.

Vermouth's arc started with the first BO showdown of the manga, involved a temporary antidote and Shiho prominently, and ended with this new lady BO agent sitting in Gin's car indicating she wanted to stay behind in Japan for reasons. Uh-oh! Desperate Revival, although interesting to Vermouth's plot, was not obviously related at the time, so I'm going to ignore it. The next known Vermouth-related case was "Battle Game Trap" ~30 files later where Jodie used Vermouth's trademark line. "The Mysterious Passenger", 15 files after "Battle Game Trap", was in many ways the file that really set the Vermouth arc on fire. We find out 1) Vermouth is a disguise artist (and who knows who she was before now!), 2) we confirm she is looking for someone and meeting with Gin, 3) Haibara confirms that Vermouth is on the bus setting up the three major suspects (Jodie, Araide, Akai), 4) Vermouth already knows "Cool Guy" Conan is a genius and is observing his anti-bus-jacker plan with interest so she's got something personal there.

45 files in and we have the full premise: an amazing BO disguise artist is hunting someone, likely Shiho, and she's maybe picked a disguise of someone close to Conan. Oh yeah, she knows Conan is a genius and thus undoubtedly be compensating for him with her plan. Go find her!

The Bourbon arc, if we consider it starting with Kir's message to Jodie in File 622, opened with the reveal of a new Detective-like BO member named Bourbon who is on the move, Okiya's introduction, Haibara's fear of him, and his move into Kudo's house. That's certainly a premise to become invested in, but the arc took it's freaking sweet time developing it. It took 55 files for Scar Akai to show up and add to events, and 20 on top of that for additional information to come out about Bourbon's activities in the 13 red shirts case.

The Rum arc, while getting the info ball rolling faster than Bourbon's, doesn't have a clean start and has instead been focusing on developing past connections rather than an active threat. We have a BO agent's name and description (which is an incentive to look for him), but no firm indications of activity. Shrunken Mary, introduced in the Bourbon arc, is certainly part of the premise and interesting as a likely APTX victim, but she's not firmly connected to anything actively-developing yet. Mary's relation to Shiho and Elena hasn't yet bore fruit. We have some Rum suspects, and most are close to the main characters, but without knowing Rum's angle it's hard to assign them a sense of threat. (Compare Vermouth, where we knew she was hunting someone by the time three suspects were announced.) The 17-years-ago Kohji case seems to be a major point, introduced ~45 files into the arc, but other than being a sore point for Rum and the BO, it's unclear how it's affecting things beyond making the BO investigate ASACA things.

So far for 80 files, the Rum arc has basically been in info dump mode, and we are awaiting the reveal of a current threat which will start tying unconnected issues together. It's not all bad, but it's not what I would call a well planned start.

So, we have...

Showdown with BO that introduces BO member + immediate followup + revelation of info about BO member (angle/goal that is currently and actively pursued by them, or by a character established to be closely linked to them) = Establishment of premise and currently active threat within 45 Files or so

Vs

Not having a clean/well-planned start + Solely developing past connections + Unclear effects on things + Info dump mode + Unconnected issues = 80+ Files without an active threat that's unconnected to anything actively developing

Som basically, don't wait around with info dumps about vague, unconnected past connections, but, instead, quickly establish an active and currently pressing threat—and thus the premise—of the arc.

21 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Super Digest Book 80+ Gosho Interview:

Q67: Does Sera know about the Black Org?
A: She doesn't know.

I'm sure Sera can make some guesses, but she really has shown no firm indications she knows anything specific about the BO. Regarding her father's disappearance, until it is shown that she knows a single specific detail about her father, I'm not going to make any speculations at all that she was told anything. Yes, I am super cynical about info sharing.

My question is, does Mary know about the BO's structures and practices? Does she know there's a specific criminal organization apparently killed her husband, and this organization also is responsible for her current state? If so, was it because Elena told her? Is this what led her to suspect who was behind what happened to both her and her husband?

Yet. At minimum, she has to know she and her mother are trying to stay under the radar of bad guys.

That's the moment I'm waiting for.

21 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I am saying Gosho's failure to design and order plot events in the Akai Family subplot so they develop and maintain a sense of jeopardy, relevance to other plots, or impact is sloppy.

Designing a mystery and the suspects in a way so that those experienced with the genre will have difficulty is a "meta writing issue", while designing a plot so that it has an early and strong impact is more of a "fundamental writing issue." It's more important to attend to the fundamentals than hit the meta problems. And to be sure, it's hard to address meta issues because you have limited time and limited suspects, and sometimes you just need to do your thing because you need to achieve the fundamentals.

The easiest way to game the meta is to buck your past trends and tropes. Gosho certainly uses recurring tropes which are exploitable.

A higher level strategy is to "clear" a suspect via a secondary case and have some entirely innocent backstory come out. People tend to put a character out of mind when they are "resolved", and don't suspect a person may have layers. For instance Koumei and Yonehara Sakurako are two characters in the resolved state, because both have been cleared through a case(s) and had some backstory come out. I don't think either of them are Rum because they appear to have fully decent vision, but it would be a pretty twisty twist for the savvy fandom if one of them turned out to be Rum.

So the failure here is a failure to reach the level of the Vermouth and Kir arcs, which did design and order plot events so their development would maintain a sense of jeopardy, relevance to other plots, and impact.

So you don't mind a lack of addressing meta writing issues as long as you think the fundamental writing issues have been attended to properly. Making it difficult for the experienced—changing up one's trends and tropes—should only be focused on if the writer has time to do so, and has already attended to the fundamentals.

All the more reason to not throw Sakurako to the wayside.

You bet it'd be a twist. Though I'm more expecting Taka'aki/Koumei to turn out to be Rum—in fact, he's one of my top candidates, at the moment—than Sakurako because he hasn't seen Shiho/Ai, while she has on two occasions (847–849/731–732 and 918–920/814–815). Though it must be said that, if Taka'aki/Koumei was Rum, you'd think he wouldn't just sit there and do nothing about the revelation that Shinichi/Conan is the brains behind Sleeping Kogoro, a man who Gin suspects may have gone after the Organization.

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 14, 2017

On 1/13/2017 at 2:39 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

My question is, does Mary know about the BO's structures and practices? Does she know there's a specific criminal organization apparently killed her husband, and this organization also is responsible for her current state? If so, was it because Elena told her? Is this what led her to suspect who was behind what happened to both her and her husband?

Tsutomu sent Mary a final message which was vague, but specified that Tsutomu had made enemies of "horrible people". It's a pretty easy leap to deduce that Tsutomu ran afoul of some group when doing whatever regarding Kohji's case (Shuuichi knew Kohji case tied to Tsutomu's disappearance). That doesn't give too many pointers, but it indicates a concrete enemy rather than an abstract force, and said enemy would be suspect #1 if someone attacked the rest of Tsutomu's family.

On 1/13/2017 at 2:39 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

All the more reason to not throw Sakurako to the wayside.

You bet it'd be a twist. Though I'm more expecting Taka'aki/Koumei to turn out to be Rum—in fact, he's one of my top candidates, at the moment—than Sakurako because he hasn't seen Shiho/Ai, while she has on two occasions (847–849/731–732 and 918–920/814–815). Though it must be said that, if Taka'aki/Koumei was Rum, you'd think he wouldn't just sit there and do nothing about the revelation that Shinichi/Conan is the brains behind Sleeping Kogoro, a man who Gin suspects may have gone after the Organization.

Possibility is not the same as probability. Let's also be brutally honest here, if Gosho doesn't notice (or doesn't care) that he has frontloaded the Rum arc with an info dump for 75-80 files, then I don't expect him to be thinking a whole lot about gaming the meta. And the most important thing I said before about Sakurako and Koumei: "I don't think either of them are Rum because they appear to have fully decent vision." I looked really really hard at these two, and the evidence is really good for both eyes sighted.

DCUniverseAficionado · January 14, 2017

10 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Possibility is not the same as probability. Let's also be brutally honest here, if Gosho doesn't notice (or doesn't care) that he has frontloaded the Rum arc with an info dump for 75-80 files, then I don't expect him to be thinking a whole lot about gaming the meta. And the most important thing I said before about Sakurako and Koumei: "I don't think either of them are Rum because they appear to have fully decent vision." I looked really really hard at these two, and the evidence is really good for both eyes sighted.

And Taka'aki/Koumei, I think, has had more appearances than most of the characters who you've analyzed, right (besides Shinichi/Conan and Kansuke)? So that conclusion has more certainty than most of the other characters you've analyzed, given the larger number of data points you had with him?

Have you analyzed Heiji's father? Is that even feasible, given that his eyes are shut, most of the time?

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 14, 2017

2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

And Taka'aki/Koumei, I think, has had more appearances than most of the characters who you've analyzed, right (besides Shinichi/Conan and Kansuke)? So that conclusion has more certainty than most of the other characters you've analyzed, given the larger number of data points you had with him?

Have you analyzed Heiji's father? Is that even feasible, given that his eyes are shut, most of the time?

Both Sakurako and Koumei have had enough appearances for me to be pretty certain. I did more than just statistics, I also looked for contexts where they were responding to things they could only see in their peripheral vision, and unlike Kansuke, they never had any "misses" over overcompensation headturns.

I don't think Heiji's father is a viable suspect if he hasn't had a substantial recent reappearance (last appearance = a few panels with Ootaki in the vampire mansion case post mystery train), so even if I had a way to compensate for squinty eyes, I would not bother.

DCUniverseAficionado · January 14, 2017

49 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I don't think Heiji's father is a viable suspect if he hasn't had a substantial recent reappearance (last appearance = a few panels with Ootaki in the vampire mansion case post mystery train), so even if I had a way to compensate for squinty eyes, I would not bother.

But if he does appear within the next, say, 15 Files or so, he'll be on the list (though the context of his appearance would be consequential, correct)?

Chekhov MacGuffin · January 15, 2017

8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

But if he does appear within the next, say, 15 Files or so, he'll be on the list (though the context of his appearance would be consequential, correct)?

A consequential appearance (not a flashback, not a reference) in the next fifteen files would be significant enough to put him on the list, but only if it doesn't solely revolve around Hattori's romance with Kazuha (i.e. fatherly gossip).

MeiTanteixX · January 16, 2017

What an interesting conversation to read through. took quite some time.

Although it's vague, I would account the "the rat extermination plans" that Gin mentioned as something connected to Rum(since they were both addressed in the same chapter). Ofc, there's also the slight(horrible) off-chance that it was only supposed to serve as a teaser for movie 20.

Either way, although it's true that Rum's activities/plans hasn't been addressed and developed, there's nothing that forces Gosho to make Rum the center-role in the potential-threat establishment. My point is that 55 files into the Rum arc, we already established a threat that most likely will develop on behind the scenes...File 953, Gin's clear intentions of wanting to find out if Kogoro is a "sleeping demon". I think that this is as straightforward as Gosho could get with threat establishment, and since Gosho is likely gonna make the Rum arc a bit more grandiose(compared to previous arcs), info-dumping and early setups/introductions is all welcomed by me. It's a huge step up from how he introduced the Bourbon arc characters and plot.

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1. If Detective Conan declined in quality, in which arc did it do so, and to what degree (please specify degree in your post)?

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Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?
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