Apoptoxin 4869

[Apoptoxin 4869]

Also point to note that APTX-of the past wasn't SB. They were two different drugs, both developed by Miyanos. So even if APTX was used that APTX would have killed the victims with 100% surety. So if it was really used on Asaka then Asaka would have died in the first place.

If you ask me the basis of my assumption then I'll give you the argument that a potential revolutionary drug like SB wouldn't have been used to kill people because killing wasn't the purpose of the drug, the killing drug was APTX which wasn't SB the revolutionary drug. Vermouth being a victim of early prototype of SB would know it with 100% surety. 

[Shuukichi Haneda Discussion Thread]

TW why Sukichi refers Mary as Mary-Oka-san? Isn't it odd? Just Mama or Oka-san is sufficient. It seems like as if Kichi has more than one Oka-sans so he needs to name them?

[Apoptoxin 4869]

1 hour ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Helping him with a disguise involves overseeing it(in case his cover might be in danger), like in File 851-852.

 

Or, she could disguise as Azusa and have Bourbon's support whenever she lacks info on her. Don't know why you think she needs to keep an eye on Bourbon.

 

Either way, as I said, her offering a capable blackmailer help(which would get her involved in the mission), and then rushing with a disguise to the scene after this said blackmailer neglects it(with a weak excuse that was immediately averted from), gives me reason to consider this possibility.

Not necessarily, infact it was just a suggestion to Bourbon, even if Bourbon took it there was no surety that Vermouth would be overseeing his disguise, it isn't the same situation like file 851-852. 

To be precise she didn't just butt in, she butted in for a reason which is revealed that she doesn't trust Bourbon around Ran and Conan. That was the primary reason. Disguising as Asuza makes her dependent on Bourbon but it also ensures that Bourbon is restricted as she would be accompanying him all around the place. So her goal was to restrict/bind(figuratively) Bourbon so that he can't do stuff to Conan and Ran. She was also trying to get the hell out of there as soon as possible, so she was the one who took the lead in questioning as Bourbon seemed rather lazy in bringing up that topic. 

[Apoptoxin 4869]

10 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Actually, you are wrong here. Bourbon alone had orders to investigate the Asaca song. Vermouth on the other hand deliberately tried to get involved by offering Bourbon to help with a disguise.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Even when Bourbon declined, she still hurried to the scene with a rushed disguise and a weak excuse(considering that Bourbon has been hanging around the Mouri all this time). Then she suddenly changes subject, as if that excuse wasn't important.

  Reveal hidden contents

She was also the one who asked about the "Asaca" song's name in the end. All this gives me a reason to consider that she's very much interested in the dying message and that the reason is Asaka's disappearance(which could potentially be due to the Miyano's prototype having a hidden rare side-effect that doesn't kill).

 

First of all, we don't know if her state is a result of SB or not, but even if it wasn't, she has proven to have all intentions of hindering the BO from progressing with their research, and if SB had the potential of improving the BO's results, then that's all the reason for her to destroy the Miyano's project.

No, Vermouth was only offering to help while keeping her distance in the first place. The conversation only means that, if you refer to the previous panel then you'll see that Vermouth clearing the air that it's Bourbon's mission in the first place. "Investigate it and then if necessary eliminate it."

Either way, now it was a joint investigation for them. If Vermouth was really trying to kill two birds by a single stone she herself could have disguised as someone close to Hado/the singer and get closer to the scene while at the same time keeping an eye on Bourbon. But that wasn't her intention, she only wanted to ensure that Bourbon doesn't try something funny with Ran and Conan. The older version of APTX only killed people(allegedly and had no shrinking effect) So Vermouth's fear is unfounded. But any progress on SB research can blast her cover and SB wasn't an APTX-prototype.

[Apoptoxin 4869]

The Miyano's bodies weren't found though. I think they likely escaped and the fire was their doing so that nobody can make any progress on the damn drug.

I also think that Vermouth wasn't the one who orchestrated the fire, though she might have had planning for this but Miyanos did it before her. That's why there is her hatred against Sherry's parents. If her Shrinking wasn't the cause of the Miyanos then she had no reason to eliminate them ,to be precise the Miyanos would be her greatest ally because the SB would reverse the mechanism and Vermouth won't have to hide it anymore. Asaka wasn't possibly a victim of APTX/Silver-Bullet, else Vermouth would have taken the lead in the Asaca song case and also Hotta Gaito case.But she ceded it to Bourbon in Asaca song case and wasn't even there during Hotta's case. If Vermouth's shrinking wasn't a cause of the research of Miyanos so really doesn't need to care about the effects of Silver Bullet, because it doesn't tie her with the SB.

[Haneda Kohji Case Theories]

We're not sure if it was linked like that, no info is there on it. BTW can the dying msg also implicate Chikara Katsumata?

The uploader also claimed about another room, not an adjoining room though.

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

10 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Again, when Asaca attacked Kohji, he knew once he saw Amanda's body that it was Rum because of Rum MO. Something that perhaps he was told off by Amanda as well. Regarding the 2nd point, maybe Kohji was washing his face before being attacked by Asaca. However after the fight, he runs to Amanda's room to cut the mirror. And later he comes back to his room leaving the taps open, and if either Asaca or Rum closed it, then they would higher up the chances of leaving trail behind.

You need a constant flow of Water to cut the mirror. That's what it is as explained in the end of the chapter. So if Kohji was dying and almost using his last bit of strength to cut the mirror he must have opened the taps in the place where he was cutting the mirror. According to you it was Amanda's room(i.e her bathroom) now if Kohji scrambled out of there, closing the taps,while holding the mirror in his left hand and the scissors in his dominant hand(right hand) reaches his room. Throws away the mirror, throws away the scissors, throws away a bunch of stuff to the ground. Doing all these while he's poisoned by APT which works almost instantly. See where the problem is your theory?

Also why did he think it was Rum, if Asaka attacked him and he saw Amanda's corpse then he would have implicated Asaka, because he didn't know about Rum's involvement.

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

13 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

More or less the order is right, but perhaps Rum did not know how many people were in the room, so he decided to wait on it since he heard no scream. Rather than exposing himself, he would wait for a minute maybe while texting someone. Kohji, for his part would want to hide the mirror in his already messy room since it wouldn't make sense for a cut mirror to be on his body or Amanda's. So he tries his best to hide it by moving to his room, for it is the best option he could've think so in his state. Rum also knows about APTX way of killing, so since he is short on time and don't want to implicate another culprit is involved in the crime by using a tool that is not compatible with Asaca (Asaca perhaps brought his/her weapon and  beaten Kohji with it, so using another tool would implicate another person. Hence it is best to use APTX in order to ensure nothing traces back to him).

Here the two assumption you are making which seem to be a little contentious 

1) Even if Amanda exposed Rum's name to Kohji, how was he so sure that Rum has done it in the first place, his first instinct would be to implicate Asaka.

2) So you're saying that Kohji already cut the mirror in Amanda's bathroom but then why the taps were left opened in Kohji's bathroom?(Okiya Subaru confirms this while he was asking whereabouts of the clenched scissors case.)3) 

On 09/05/2017 at 7:44 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

 

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

 

1) If Kohji was beaten in Amanda's room then why Amanda's room wasn't in disarray?(If it was then it would have been mentioned by the uploader)

2) Why Kohji drag himself to his room, when he can leave the dying message in Amanda's room?

3) Even if Kohji was poisoned in Amanda's room then why the scissors which he used was found in his room, not Amanda's?

4) Why  taps taps in Kohji's bathroom were kept opened?(Subaru confirmed it implicitly.)

5) Kohji's face was bruised but we don't see blood clotting/dried blood over the injuries, if there was bleeding then clotting/dried blood would have been there?

(Answer these questions without name calling, if you fail then probably you're not worthy of any discussion/my time.)

 

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

• How can you explain the opened taps in Kohji's bathroom, but no such tap was opened in Amanda's bathroom, cherry-picking my post won't help, because I was talking about the bruise in his hand not the bruises on his body.
• Why Koji's blood wasn't found in Amanda's room? Amanda's room was very clean to begin with and there was no sign of a fight.
• If Mary found it boring then it means there was nothing new which Hotta added to her information content, which means Mary has reason to believe that there's more to the case.
• A protip for you, read the relevant file before posting,(https://giphy.com/gifs/dr-house-ehRshSN4PF9G8)

 

11 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

 

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

 

1) Kohji was found in his own room not in Amanda's.

2) Kohji's body was found with bruises which can be caused if scissors are being gripped tightly. Now the question is whether he dies with the scissors in his hand or not. Probably not because the scissors were found lying around the crime scene, so the mess created in the bathroom of Haneda Koji can be explained, but the mess in his room is due to the confrontation between the killer and Kohji.

3) Mary laughed off the notion that Asaka was a female carrying a hand-mirror as boring, so this implies Hotta saw a different woman who was also related in Kohji case but ont Asaka and/or Asaka wasn't a woman in the first place.

[Boss of The Black Organization?]

2 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

"The boss's ID will shock Haibara" existed since at least 2008 (e.g. late Kir arc), and most likely before, and is attributed to something called "Mysteries and Secrets Revealed! Volume 19: The Case Closed Casebook".

Also, I'm am very concerned that someone is taking a theory involving Lum Invader seriously.

If Lum was Rum we wouldn't have seen Koji's death. A death would have been prevented, a shogi champion for the invader's daughter's marriage sounds lucrative.

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

13 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Unfortunately as of yet there is no evidence to support it, however if you tie it with the fact that if indeed Rum has appeared. Then you can assume he have no long hair as of the current timeline, since we have not been introduced to an old man (considering this to be the de facto current attribute of Rum since he is that old). Then the theory holds, as the most characters who are male old and with long hair has either died or exposed (except for Mr. Masakage the magician, though I doubt Gosho has planned that far ahead). You also can say that the 'accident' that gave Rum his prosthetic eye has also changed his appearance, hence the contradicting descriptions. 

Correctly said, if we can speculate a bit on that then we can assume that Rum is around 50-52, now. When he was a young man in his early 30's he kept flowing black hair, then the Kouji murder case forced him to do away with his hair(maybe someone had spotted him with a long/flowing hair) and then comes his second avatar, and gradually becoming an old man (50 is somewhat old in Japanese standards)

Maybe in that double murder screw up he somehow lost his eye and his face was seen. So he did away with his hairs. So the case is now like this, bat shit crazy people are roaming around the Beika area( A deadly yet mentally unstable school teacher, An equally crazy and dangerous Police chief, A sushi chef who tries to show off his eye injury despite claiming that it's still healing and a Bishonen Butler doing some bidding for a spoilt brat) but is Rum one of them?

During the Koji case there was a dying message which named his killer, now Koji won't know Rum's code name as he wasn't connected to BO. So the dying message named Rum and the body-guard of Amanda(who was also killed) is still missing and is the prime suspect of the double murder.

Now nobody seemed to have read the dying message properly and Asaka is the prime suspect. So Rum gives almost flying damns to those revelations about the Asaca song and Hotta's claims.

BO seemed to make a move because they found the similarity of the dying message and the spelling of Asaca song, so they wanted to know how the singer got the title's spelling/how much he really does know about the situation.

But there were three other Belligerents in that same case, a)Asaka, b)The Up-loader(considering Asaka isn't the up-loader) of Koji case c)Akai-san's dad.

So either Wakita is Rum( as Kogoro got involved in Soul detective case, Rum would like to know whether Kogoro is really interested in that case and how much he knows about Rum.) or Rum is yet to make a move as he already knows that Hotta was killed before he could meet Kogoro.

Mary and Sera are not the uploaders, because when Sera explained the stuff, Hotta was planning to Mary, Mary termed it as boring. So Mary already have enough info on that case but the up-loader seems to have no idea about Asaka's gender and Asaka's possession of a hand-mirror.

If we assume that Asaka made out of there alive then he/she would be on the run hiding from BO, probably he'she won't try so perseverely to upload the Haneda case files, when they are being taken down frequently. So it would be a bit unlikely for Asaka to do that.

We know Akai-senior was investigating the case, that's why Mary knows enough to term Hotta's knowledge boring. He probably went too close to the organization and had to go underground for self preservation.

Now if two Koji case related stuff comes up, these three people would come out with all guns blazing because they want to get Rum's head at all cost.

 

 

[Discussion Thread about Rum]

33 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Hey everyone, it's been a long time ! Anyways, I think maybe we have thought about Rum's attributes from a closed angle. Most if not all have compared Rum's descriptions to the Apartment store case, however what if it is not scene related but time related. For example, it is not that some agents saw him as strong or effeminate. But rather it is that at different times he was seen differently, simple as that. Perhaps in youth he had long hair which made everyone think he is effeminate, but later he cuts it short or keeps it (like Shuu in a way XD). He is now considered old, because for the new B.O agents he will look old and a more senior agent. And maybe strong due to either natural ability or again time related, or maybe just like how in the 20 movie, he mostly recruits female agents to be under him directly perhaps as they are pron to his manipulation than men. And these female agents would describe him as strong in relation to them. What do you think?

It's a very reasonable assumption. Maybe Rum aged just like a normal human being and the three descriptions come from three different points of time.

Rum is also not a very visible BO member, as he's the second in command, his appearance would be very limited to lower ranking BO members and as he's known to be the second in command. So lack of visibility, a story about having a prosthetic eye and gradual ageing did the rest. A good theory, the only possible fragility is that we have no evidence to support that the three descriptions came from three different points of time. If somehow that's ensured then we can put a stamp on your theory without any doubt.

[Boss of The Black Organization?]

4 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Take it with a pinch of salt if you really think there's something to this "Shiho/Ai will be shocked" thing, but, personally, I'd just discard it.

Then better discard it, just speculations, I think it became prominent with Invader Lum theory's propagation, where Rum is Lum, the daughter of Boss. Akai is Moroboshi the person whom Lum loves, Jodie is her love rival Shinobu. But somehow Lum's snaggletooth ended up in Sera's mouth.

[Boss of The Black Organization?]

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

I'm afraid that's from a non-official source. It's often cited as a clue to the Boss' identity when it really shouldn't be. 

That's what I was thinking also, if it's from a non official source then can we discard it or take it with a pinch of salt?

[Haneda Kohji Case Theories]

1. In Asaca song case BO sent Vermouth and Bourbon to investigate, as the song had close resemblance to the dying message of Koji case.
2. In soul detective case despite the announcement of the soul detective that he was going to dig up the Koji case by spirit summoning, went unnoticed by the BO. Not a single person was sent to investigate that matter.
3. So was BO sure that the first case might be important but the second is just a load of crap?
4. The dying message couldn't be Asaca as the U portion wouldn't be needed in that case.
5. So BO is looking for Asaca but pays no heed to the man who claimed that he had seen Asaca with a hand mirror.
6. Whom had Hotta seen in the first place? Not Asaka for sure else BO would be coming after him, so who is that woman whom Hotta had seen with the mirror? Does BO know who that woman was so Hotta's claim made was easily ruled out as bull crap?

[Boss of The Black Organization?]

13 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

There is a certain type of author that tries to be too clever and defeat all his readers by parading in a ridiculous ending that no one can see coming, but Gosho is not that kind of author. If you look at the normal cases and the arc cases so far, Gosho plays fair, and doesn't go too out of his way to be difficult or shocking. It's against Gosho's personality and writing style to choose a logic-defying twist ending where Conan is the boss.

Does it mean that Boss is someone whom Haibara sees with a high regard? BTW is their like any link where Gosho confirms that Haibara would be shocked to see the boss? The mysterious disappearance of Haibara's parents were also a shocker as their bodies were never found.

Also Vermouth's hatred towards Miyano couple is quite shocking it feels like she has a personal score against them.

[Mary Discussion Thread]

7 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Conan straight-up thinks Rumi called him over to encounter the murder mystery and he saw less of the situation than we, the readers did via 3rd-person omniscience. Rumi was all dressed and ready to go out and had no reason to be late to school, heard the convo between the soon-to-be killer and vic, then suddenly changed plans, went to a store to buy extra things in prep for the kids to come over, and was late to school. After the tiger shenanigans, she very, very conveniently invited the kids over at the time the murder plot was going to take place, which she overheard during the convo (e.g. paella dinner time). You can complain about figurative post hoc smoke not technically being correlated to fire all you want, but I'm just going keep pointing at the metaphorical firetrucks parked out front of this situation. Let me reiterate, Conan thinks Rumi prepared a setup so they would encounter the murder case. (File 987 pgs 5-6) Do you need Rumi to literally monologue her plans before you believe that she took advantage of an incoming murder situation to get close to Conan/see Conan in action?

 

So this is definitely truth and there isn't the slightest possibility that this is a convenient lie for her plan?

 

Your argument is essentially Rumi did one thing I thought was immature, so she might be a teenager in disguise.

 

I can't take this seriously because it's ridiculous and shallow. I'm getting flashbacks to when someone seriously argued with me that Okiya can't be Akai because Okiya smiles too much.

 

Well, I'm going to be blunt. Rumi being Sera is a pretty bizarre and unlikely theory. I don't know why you'd invest so much energy in it. I think it's more likely that Wakita taught Amuro how to make ham sandwiches, but I'm not having a 10+ comment reply chain to chase that one.

1.  All I'm saying that Rumi has already seen Conan in action so why does she need a second test to give to Conan? I'm more inclined to think she wanted to have a convo with Conan not wanting him to solve a murder. The betting on one of the possible outcome is gambling, why would Rumi want to gamble on something? We also have no proof to discard that buying plates for the DB was a premeditated thought of Rumi.
2. That possibly is the truth, because the Tiger painting was done at least one day before the incident took place. Rumi had no reason to carry it around because the deal was already done and she would need a scenario to appear as a truthful person when she invites the DB over.
3. Immaturity is unheard of from such a calculating mind, why suddenly the presence of Kuroda threw her off the loop? I never implied that's my reason to believe Rumi is Sera, I'm just checking out potential Rumi cosplayers.
4. I'm trying to map the personality of Rumi, that's why I need to invest in oddities of her behaviour, it has nothing to do with Rumi being X or Y.
5. BTW I did some dimension analysis on Rumi's pocket item would you like to see it?

[Mary Discussion Thread]

6 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Kuroda was talking before that as well though and we can't actually tell when she started to stare at him like that, which means that we were technically both wrong.

And yet she did comprehend it during the case.

What?! Hahaha, Gin is willing to blow up an entire train and an entire train station just to kill one person among them (and that's not even the first time he intends to blow up an entire train), Gin directly murders persons in cold blood (Pisco, Akemi), Gin orders the death of Kogoro and Conan on the mere chance that Kogoro might be related to Sherry, Vermouth killed Jodie's parents in cold blood and burned down their house, intending to burn the 8 year old Jodie as well and more, and now Rumi is supposed to be the more dangerous person than these two alone combined, because she passively allows murder to occur and risks the life of one hostage? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

 

On the rest: I disagree and I continue to find your logic baffling and unreasonable by quite a wide margin, but it's clear that this is going nowhere. I made my points and I stand by them and so do you, and that's fine.

If you read clearly then in 987 you can see Kuroda is talking while Rumi is glaring. Now if Rumi glared before Kuroda started talking only then the scenario appears. Not the other way around, 988 proves my point.

Good that you found out that the last point is for lolzs.

But let me tell you, I find you jumping to conclusions and being unreasonable by a pretty wider margin. You tend to associate causality on order alone, I disagree with that, I need more proof/material to work with. Most of your conclusions are premature, but let's agree to disagree.

[Mary Discussion Thread]

1. I'm only saying that Rumi buying plates and cups after hearing about the trouble doesn't imply causation, we need more evidence to substantiate that Rumi bought plates only because she heard about this stuff. Causation based on order of events can constitute post hoc fallacy.
2. Rumi mentioned that the tiger which she she used as a reference was in her home. So she couldn't have done it on that day. The excuse which Rumi gave was true. Because she could have given the excuse that her relatives/friends were visiting on the next day so she bought it. Conan has the receipt and he can easily verify whether her claims hold good or not, but if the excuse was he later one then Conan would have had nothing to be suspicious of. A calculating mind would have done that.
3.  If you check file 988, Kuroda mentions that Rumi glared at him so he thought that she might not be okay with calling the cops.
4. Do mature people glare at suspicious strangers? Instead they become watchful.
5. I'm saying losing your cool is not equal to behaving in a stand outish manner. If Megure was in an undercover agent with a very cunning mind he wouldn't be doing it, though it won't mean that he was an unfeeling person.
6. The vermouth example doesn't equate with this, Bourbon already knows about her love for Ran and Conan. Conan generally doesn't treat her a downright enemy and Ran is just too simple to comprehend stuff like this, Vermouth's show of affection is a lot safer than Rumi's reactions. I think if Rumi is a person who lets a murder happen because she wants to test a detective's potential is a far dangerous person than Gin, Vermouth and Rum combined, such a dangerous person can't show her triggers that easily. It's not like I'm saying she is stone cold but she has the potential to act with better judgement.

[Who did order Akai Suichi to kill scotch?]

Hmm......sounds possible. But  his cover was blown up, so I was thinking was Rum involved in it also?

[Mary Discussion Thread]

24 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Completely this. Rumi knew trouble was brewing with her neighbors. Banno Teigo had the conversation with Iiyama Kurumi in the hallway with the door open. Rumi could hear all of it. Kurumi openly demanded 100 million yen for as compensation for emotional harm because he was breaking up with her, and she threatened to sue him into oblivion. (That lawsuit would be totally laughed out of court btw.) Then Banno said "This meal will be your last" with a face full of malicious intent. By Detective Conan standards, he might has well been licking a bloody knife yandere style, that's how much "killing intent" there was going on.

 

Veteran of internet arguments here. For fallacies to have weight, you need to be using them correctly. You aren't. Second, people who bring up named fallacies are almost always amateurs who are hiding the weakness of their arguments behind formal names. Seriously, in all the time I have been on DC forums, I think I have seen fallacies used correctly about twice. I'm pretty sure there is a fallacy for this, or at least a meme or two. If there is a problem with someone's argument, just spell it out instead of trying to dress it up with gratuitous latin.

 

This is why you need to check the manga before you post. The timeline is like this - Rumi hears the conversation. It's very early which Kurumi mentions (979p3). Rumi realizes the killing intent, so then runs to the store and buys extra stuff because she knows she wants the kids to come over to witness the murder plot. (979p13) That makes her late to school which Conan notices. That day they are practicing for the play, which was decided in advance. However the props seem to have been built in class that day, including the tiger painting Rumi made. That explains the bucket of black (paint waste) water. Rumi painted her tiger with intent to wreck it later so she could have the kids over. So it's true the play prep was something determined to happen in advance. But the accident wasn't. That was something Rumi came up with after hearing the hallway fight. She even knew when the murder plan would take place because Kurumi and Banno talked about when they would meet for dinner. 

 

What claim is being invalidated here? What argument do you think Serinox is making? Because the last thing I saw Serinox saying was 1) that Rumi probably isn't Sera because that is a weird as heck idea that goes against their skills and personalities we have seen so far 2) Rumi was testing Conan at some point with the murder case.

You seem to be arguing that Rumi is cunning and devious, but clearly is triggered by people with one eye/fake eyes/whatever to the point where she loses her composure. Okay? That sounds like a totally reasonable personality to me that's done often in DC. Conan keeps his cool normally but loses it with Ran. Ai keeps her cool but loses it with the BO. Megure keeps his cool but looses it when policewomen act as bait to lure in criminals. Maybe Rumi keeps her cool, but because of a traumatic experience in the past (Kohji case is obvious choice here) she loses her cool regarding eye problems.

1. I'm saying that just because Rumi bought cups and plates after hearing about the brewing trouble, doesn't imply that cups and plates were bought because Rumi heard about the trouble. It can all be a coincidence. That's why I'll only believe it if I get more evidence for it. So making cause and effect assumptions based on timeline is post hoc fallacy. I'm not invalidating this argument, I'm searching for something which leaves no space for doubt.
2. My argument is that Rumi shot a death glare to Kuroda even before he opened his mouth. Glaring at suspicious strangers isn't a sign of maturity. Shinichi and Haibara are both teenagers and Megure is an average policeman, none of them are cold blooded calculative minds. Let's assume can we imagine Gin doing the same thing? We can only compare oranges with Oranges, not with round stones.
3. I'm not making a claim that Rumi is Sera, I'm just playing around with the idea that there's a cunning Rumi an immature Rumi living in the same body. So I'm trying to get people who fits that profile, Sera seems to be one.

[Mary Discussion Thread]

44 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Uhh, no, I didn't. I made a wrong guess at the culprit.

 

What logic is that supposed to be? If Rumi were cunning and devious, she would completely act that way 100% of the time? That's what you are arguing here? Rumi was clearly shocked, the mention of the prosthetic eye and seeing Kuroda was clearly quite emotional for her, so she reacted not like her calm self from when she beat up the robbers (for example) initially. So what? That doesn't mean she isn't cunning and devious, it's means she is a human, who reacts differently to different situations. Plus, if that really was an emotional trigger, she has probably experienced something traumatic in relation to prosthetic eyes, so her weird, emotional reaction was most likely not even a reaction she had control over.

 

If that was the plan, why did Rumi only buy cups, plates and food after the conversation, making her come late to school? If she had already decided to bring Conan on the same day, why didn't she buy that stuff the day before in her free time, instead doing on the same day and thus potentially risking her position at school?

 

She reacted with shock and she showed her emotions. That's not something specifically teenagerish, that's general human behaviour.

 

She could've still gone through with her earlier proposal to drive the DB home and drop them off one by one, leaving Conan for last, thus getting into a one on one conversation with him, even after the murder and even after the incident with the media. But she didn't.

1. You did commit it, else would have guessed the culprit correctly.
2. The logic is such a cold blooded person who wants to involve kids(DB minus Conan) into such a gruesome phenomenon can't be this much emotionally unstable, if that's the case she is a psychologically unstable.
3. Here you're assuming two things, firstly Rumi predicted the murder correctly, that's quite debatable, even if she guessed it it didn't have 100% certainty. Secondly, you're assuming that Rumi had a plenty of free time on her hand, but it was she who drew the tiger. It's tiring project because she did it single-handedly so the free-time theory of yours is not applicable, here. But something you overlooked, the play was scheduled to be held on the next day, so ruining it on the previous day gave her the perfect opportunity and she's already a hero in the school after the first case, delay on a single day won't be a big deal for her. If she was such a calculating person why the receipt was still lying on the floor? Why didn't she just throw it away?
4. How could she? Conan already figured out her plan, so that's why he asked the question about her delay. No point for Rumi to push through her plan when she's already a bit exposed.
5. Wearing your heart on your sleeve is quite teenagerish, especially for a grown up woman.

[Who did order Akai Suichi to kill scotch?]

Akai Suichi was ordered to neutralise Scotch, but who gave him the order and how Scotch's cover got blown up?

Any possible theories?

[Mary Discussion Thread]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

@Serinox said what I wanted to say but I want to further emphasize there is a zero percent chance Sera is Rumi. Arc characters are more likely to be new in a new arc than recycled. What I am more weirded out by is why you think this is a viable idea at all. Your argument's premise is two random but true facts about Rumi: Rumi glares at Kuroda, and Rumi says she is 10 years older than Kobayashi, and then somehow these are supposed to provide meaning that Rumi is Sera. It doesn't make any sense at all. It would be like me saying Kaitou Kid wears white and he steals expensive things, so he dressed up as Gin and murdered Akemi.

You have to provide on-topic evidence to make a point.

It was just a speculation a better way to frame it would be does Rumi already know about the meeting which happened 10 years ago, sorry for being not direct to you.

BTW the example you gave was bit off, if you had said that Wakita has a bad eye and he has a strong built then he's Rum. It would have been appropriate example to counter my point. Because you see here's no evidence that Wakita isn't Rum though the proposition based on these two points is quite far fetched.

What I should have asked that Rumi seemed to a bit teenagerish immature at times that's why my question was framed.