When will it end?

[When will it end?]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:39 PM, Sensei Kaito said:

I hope it never ends 

 

And I do get why one would feel that way, but when the choice comes down to keeping it going with a decline in quality (lead character being a gary stu*, love interest being a bore and the main antagonist group really lacking much of a threat) or ending it so that it is enjoyable from beginning to end, I'd think the latter is in the long run for the best.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

^^^I get that, but from time to time, whether it will make any difference or not I tend to look over arguments/comments given and more details tend to come to mind that I like to divulge.

 

And hey, if there are posters who show up in the future who flat out disagree with me, then at least I like to think that at least those in disagreement can understand why I feel so strongly.

 

I think going into such details makes for a more entertaining read than just "Ran should get to find out the truth about Conan, because otherwise the story will be dullsville, dude".

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

I've touched on this before and even went into more detail in a PM with DCUniverseAficionado last night/this morning.

 

And for the reference this is solely from an in-universe outlook.

 

Now a big part of my problem with singling Ran out of all other people is that she has shown herself to be a capable person such as during the story setting up Okiya's introduction (well at least the part where he moved into the Kudo residence), saving Ai during the Vermouth arc which at least she knows about and even if she couldn't permanently retain her suspicion without laying her cards on the table prematurely, the fact that she was able to conceal it from a prodigy like Conan is no small feat.  And unlike the secret keepers she had to do it all without the same level of skills or connections.  Best Ran has in her pocket is her lawyer mother.

 

But just as Conan, Ai and Agasa underestimate her, is it possible that a fan like myself overestimates her?  Sure.  I mean I believe that her potential could easily be increased substantially if she had their trust and even help to improve on her capabilities (like acting lessons from Yukiko).  But her flaws do make her likely to compromise their secret.

 

So why do I remain firm on the idea that telling her would basically be a smart move?  Because for a trio of people to be that smart, it makes me puzzled that they miss the forest for the trees.

 

Starting with a couple occasions on a smaller scale, look at The Pro Soccer Player Blackmail Case and Holmes Revelation.

 

In both cases Conan has to suspend working on the cases as Ran found out that he as Shinichi is close by despite suggesting that he is out of the area.  Had Ran been in the know much early on I don't see much trouble if any.  Heck, aside from knowing the stakes, Ran's presence and knowledge means that she could help Conan with the case or just let him focus on the case while she focuses on covering any tracks they might leave.

 

And as much as The Desperate Revival is a favorite of mine and blows The Shirigama/Highway Case out of the water, it shares perhaps a moment that should have been a wake up call for Conan, Ai and Agasa.  I mean if you have the option to do so, yes keep anyone from stumbling onto the secret.  So what if the choice boils down to telling Ran or letting a bunch of red shirts witnessing the transformation?  Sorry but telling Ran, Kogoro, Kazuha, Sato, Takagi would be a lesser setback than a bunch of people who might not be able to be trust flat out or wouldn't be able to comprehend the depth of the situation.  I have a hard time believe that Ran wouldn't make the attempt to up the whole concealment if you told her that Conan's secrecy is literally a matter of life or death.

 

Or to put it another way, pretty much all of Teitan High goers found out the secret because Ran alone discovering it would signal the apocalypse.  Only reason nothing comes out of it is Heiji being there to tell people to keep Shinichi's presence and because the antidote didn't wear off as feared.  Dumb luck is a mild statement.  This is brain dead luck at it's finest.

 

 

Heck, I'll make no pretense that my commentary is fueled with bias, but when I suggest that my favorite story arc would have been averted, I think that demonstrates just how problematic the characters' line of thought is.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:26 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Is Shinichi comparable with that guy from File 105–File 107/Episode 32 comparable? Sure—they've both got some work to do. But are they equivalent? Nope—putting Shinichi and that guy on the same level is false equivalency. 

 

To give a cliff notes version here since we're discussing it in more detail elsewhere, I feel a person with good intentions acting badly is potentially worse since:

- There can be a slippery slope where a person feels that any form of action is okay if it's for a higher service.  Even if Shinichi doesn't use the good intentions card to attempt murder, I think thoughtless behavior from a loved one can arguably hurt more than any physical harm from an outside force to a degree.

 

- At least people are cautious around one who is a transparent jerk.  With the well-intentioned kind, others might not recognize jerklike behavior quite so easily.

 

And that said I get it's a Shonen trope for heroes to be flawed and that's good, especially when the story treats the harmful ones as problematic rather than dismissing them.

 

That said, I guess I expect more from Shinichi well because lets look at some other heroes:

- Yusuke Urameshi: Saving a kid at the expense of his own life was a start of him becoming such, but considering he started out as a delinquent I can't really be surprised when he's made a jerk move.

 

- Son Goku: Yeah he's not like Yusuke who was a delinquent, but when you really look at the character, he doesn't always do good for the sake of it and will make such moves like showing mercy to Vegeta (before his reform) and Frieza just to have a strong opponent to train for, contrary to the US Dubs trying to make him seem like he's doing so to be noble (i.e. letting Vegeta live to show him there's a better way than hatred).

 

For all the flaws he had in comparison, Shinichi arguably had more of a hero complex to start with, as such I feel it's legit to expect a little more of him than I would his fictional peers and feel it's more problematic when certain flaws aren't intended to be seen as problematic by the narrative.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

On 7/20/2017 at 5:44 PM, DConanSyndicate said:

 

This is an anime lol, Yes Detective crime solving show that uses every day plot devices to kill someone but they still appeal to the younger audience, which apparently attracts a lot of bad situations that end up in a "Happily ever after relationship"

Ehh.  Doesn't mean one should glorify unhealthy behavior, especially when there are one time characters who act in a sleazy manner.  Take the guy who appeared in the story where Eri made her debut.  The guy who was set to meet up with Sonoko, but Conan thought he was a date for Ran.  Said person suggesting that he would take advantage of a naive/innocent woman.  And the narrative does rightfully treat him as a jerk.

 

Yet when Conan behaves in such a manner (constant deceitfulness or cock blocking Eisuke), he gets away with it why?  Sorry, but being the main character is a ridiculous reason to look the other way, unless said character is going to actually see some development maturity wise.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

On 11/29/2011 at 10:56 PM, nis-aihara said:

This is gonna be a bummer to think. I'll be always support ShinRan! Even if I'm not a fan. . .

ShinRan 4ever! <3

 

I'm on the fence with the pairing.  If the manga glosses over the problematic nature of Shinichi's deceitfulness, I'd find it hard to feel like they're a couple with a happy/healthy future.  Ran doesn't need to go all karate girl on him or giving him death glares, but I want to see any post revelation stories showing signs that she's brokenhearted that the boy she cares about didn't trust her with the truth or respect her enough to let her make decisions that pertain to her.  And more importantly, I want Shinichi to respond with some humility and making more of an effort to take chances with her in the trust department.

[Survey-Who is the best loveteam and childhood lovers?]

Frankly I find love triangles need to die down unless they provide legit shake up.  Problem with them for the most part is that they:

1. Tend to end with the pairing that's already obvious and as such is more of a diversion that an actual, suspenseful turn.

 

2. Despite being used as a source of tension, they almost always end very clean with no lingering bits of hard feeling from the ones who lose.

 

And considering how the series is heavily clear with being Pro-Shinichi/Ran, I feel any triangles with them would only come off as cheap tension than strong and compelling drama.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

On 2/27/2017 at 6:22 PM, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I agree that letting Ran find out the truth would be good for the story. I absolutely agree that the reasons given by Asada and Haibara for not telling her are wearing extremely thin at this point. In the beginning, when Agasa first suggested that he should keep it secret from everyone, the reasoning was sound, but with all the people who have learned the truth throughout the course of the series and the fact that not a single one of them has been put in danger because of that knowledge, it strains believability that even Asada and Haibara still think knowing would endanger Ran. I find it more likely that their reasons have evolved over time.

 

Haibara is obviously a manipulator who draws some strange delight from getting people to do what she wants rather than what they want or need to do. On top of that, there is the possibility that she has developed her own feelings for Shinichi over time, and she realizes that Ran learning the truth would ultimately being Ran and Shinichi closer together; so in addition to the pleasure she draws from coercing Conan to keep Ran in the dark, I think a part of it, though she would never admit it (probably not even to herself), is that she doesn't want him to get closer to Ran.

 

As for Agasa, I can't help but wonder if the knowledge that he is one of the few main players that is in on the secret gives him some sense of power or importance. I mean, before the whole ordeal started, he was pretty much just a washed up failed inventor. He was Doc Brown to Shinichi's Marty. A crackpot that nobody gavemuch creedence to. But now, he has become one of the most important people in Conan's life; any time Conan faces a new problem, it is Agasa who he turns to for some gadget that can provide a solution. Because of what happened to Shinichi, Agasa is now important. But if Ran were to discover the truth, that might infringe upon Agasa's importance. Ran is a fairly smart girl, and has skills of her own. If Conan were able to turn to her in a time of need, he wouldn't need Agasa as much. A perfect example is the kick power enhancing shoes. Agasa developed these to compensate for the lack of strength Conan had in his child's body; but if Conan had filled Ran in on the truth, he wouldn't need this, instead he and Ran would act as a team and she could use her martial arts skill to take down opponents. So Agasa might just have some kind of job security and/or self worth issues that are assuaged by his importance to Conan, and he doesn't want to give that up.

 

Yet more character/story potential that would come about with change.  It just further demonstrates that characterization can make for more padding fodder than being a series killer.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

11 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I personally believe that forgiveness should be given freely, but trust and respect must be earned. For that reason, I don't have a problem with the thought of Ran immediately forgiving Shinichi for deceiving her. I do, however, think he should have to earn back her trust and respect, which is why there needs to be AT LEAST one full story arc following the revelation, during which he can strive to re-earn her respect and trust.

Fair enough I suppose, though the sad thing is given Gosho's handling so far of things I fell even just one post finale arc wouldn't do justice to a story that in-universe may be under a year, but took decades to budge on.

 

"Actually, I think it is more that they're afraid the knowledge will put her in danger, not themselves."

 

Either way the problem still applies.  Namely that aside from the Desperate Revival (where Haibara gives Conan 3 choices on how to deal with Ran), the three seem to be 100% sure that Ran finding out will definitely cause problems rather than humoring the possibility that it would be fine to let her in.

 

Ironically enough, there's another reason I like Funvince's Mystery of Conan Edogawa fanfic.  In contrast to most "Ran finding out Conan's id" he doesn't try to hide the fact that Conan's actions aren't really quite as noble as the canon narrative tries to pass it off.

 

Yet, that fic actually implements more substantial reason to keep her in the dark beyond "she's a china doll that needs protection":

 

1. Ironically it wouldn't be Ran that Conan is untrusting of, but rather he doesn't trust himself to keep up the act properly when he's around his friend and is more inclined to let his guard down entirely.

 

2. Lets say that Ran is brought into the fold and doesn't get plugged because of it.  That means she gets to help keep the secret now.  In other words, there are going to be times where she may have to make the decision to lie to those she cares about when they may potentially come onto Conan's secret (like say Kogoro).  And really something like this really would be good for numerous reasons:

 

- Giving Ran something to do of course.

- While mind you I'm still on the fence of Ran forgiving Conan from the get go, I feel a situation like this would help it to feel more understandable.

- It also gives a nice duality to Shinichi and Ran's development.  One has to learn that secrets can cause more harm sometimes than help, while the other has to work on committing herself a little more towards secrecy.  But sadly, I think such an idea is a little too nuanced for Gosho to consider.

 

" Actually, Hattori is the most vocal proponent stating that Conan SHOULD tell Ran. He only keeps the secret because Conan insists on it. He's always pushing for Conan to reveal the truth to Ran. "

 

Of course, and that's why I would assign the quote to him.  I mean I still feel that even if Ran proves herself to be a great ally, Conan, Ai and Agasa would still try to play it as their previous attempt at secrecy as a good choice with Heiji getting to point out how stupid it was in the end.

[Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?]

On 1/26/2017 at 10:44 PM, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I will be really disappointed if Ran doesn't find out until the final episode. I want to see Aoyama-sensei explore the whole new dynamic that would be created by Ran learning the truth before Conan is cured. That deserves a full story arc unto itself.

 

Plus it would in my opinion be hard to view the relationship in a healthy light if he waited until the end.  I mean it's Ran's right to forgive him and forgiveness is a good thing, but it shouldn't be given out like pennies or candy

 

Even good people need to face the consequences of their actions in order to be motivated to improve.

 

 

Additionally?  Well the whole problem with the status quo isn't that Conan and company fear the possible outcomes of telling Ran but rather they flat out believe that telling her is a definite suicide.

 

That said one moment that would be a must is Conan, Agasa, Ai and possibly Heiji reflecting on recent developments, including how Ran's been a big help in the long run.  Said moment would include Heiji stating something along the lines of "So why were we afraid to let her in on the secret again?  I mean you'd think we were part of a 20 year old comic that dreads the concept of change.".

[Ran and Shinichi's first meeting]

Actually got it last month/year along with 58-60 after some delay.

 

Afterall, nothing makes for a more appropriate reading during the holidays than stories often involving murder:-).

[Ran and Shinichi's first meeting]

And while this one is arguably less notable, there was also that one chapter story during the Clash of Red & Black storyline which finally (last year I think?) was made into a special.  The one focusing on Kogoro.

[Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?]

42 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

1. The thing is, I'm not going to make a certain assumption because Gosho's retreading, as of late, has been criticized—I'm not going to assume that he's no longer capable of "good" retreading, just because of how unnecessarily protracted DC is, to some, at the moment. I'd like for people not to assume, because of how the Bourbon arc went, that every arc after it will be of the same quality until the series ends. Perhaps when he decides that the time has come to stop extending DC (when he decides the board is set), things will be back to Clash of Red and Black levels of quality and excitement—perhaps some consider current DC just not as good as old DC because he's doing all he can to keep things going, as they are, and when he stops doing that, perhaps it'll get back to a higher level of quality.

 

 

2. "Outright bad?" Ah, so stagnation is a decline for you—at least in this case—then. I can definitely understand—in this case. But I still think "outright bad" is a bit much/harsh—"very disappointing," on the other hand? I would not consider that to be a bit much/harsh. (But there are probably those who'd use harsher words and say DC is already "outright bad," at the least)

 

1. I feel you need to give my previous post a second even lengthy look if you get the chance.  Notably part of the reason I feel that having Conan and Ran's dynamic permanently changing sooner gives it more padding material.  Or just to get down to the point:

 

C. I keep hearing that it reduces the potential for new stories to the point that you might as well just end the whole thing.  Funny, I see some pretty good stories to help keep things fresh on the side and interesting:

• Relating to A and B, I don't care to see Ran post-confession hating and snubbing Shinichi/Conan cold turkey.  But for the time being there's the coping aspect to the whole thing.  Conan needs to accept that he caused Ran more pain than he tried to protect her from, while Ran not hating Conan is still coping with the fact that she was lied to and not trusted.  While I don't know how to have it come about, maybe keep this as the status quo with things relaxing between them during the London arc as it would be one of the few stories to be heavily altered, thus allowing that arc to still has something to use for an emotional moment.  Maybe near the end when Conan briefly becomes Shinichi, include a nice moment where the two decide to talk for a while and have their first friendly & honest conversation (i.e. talking in person without a voice changing device and no lies between them) since the whole Apotoxin thing happened.
• Now to give Conan some understanding, while he and those helping him might have gone overboard at one point or another with the whole secrecy thing, keeping it is still important to a point.  To illustrate such a detail, there could be several occasions where Ran's newfound involvement has her dealing with the irony that she was once being lied to in the interest of protecting everybody, now she has to contribute to that lie whether the person stumbling onto the secret is an acquaintance, friend or family member.  Heck, this could be the reason why she might be willing to grant Conan forgiveness to begin with and help her with having perspective on the matter.  Also an example of this, well the Shiragami story.  I still find the first two episodes (521-522) to be decent for reasons stated, but I really find that 523 is really the weaker part as it really doesn't even try make the proverbial journey interest.  At best it's something we don't see often, but other than treading old grounds without much to offer, meh.  Heck, The London arc had that love confession going on afterwards.  More on this in a bit.  But yeah one major change for Episode 522 is that it could even be the first time where Ran isn't only keeping the secret, but has to help Heiji to actively keep others (Kogoro and Kazuha) out of the loop.  What's more is the delicious sense of irony of the two main characters.  One has to learn to ease up on the secrecy, while one has to practice to help maintain it.  Irony and and opposite developments.
• So what to do with Episode 523?  Well we'd be without Shinichi story which would mean average mystery case right?  Wrong.  This could be say the first of many future cases since the Ski Lodge Murder Case (way back in Episode 84-85) where Ran steps up to help Conan (and in the case of this ep, Heiji) solve the case.  So within the new and improved version of the Shiragami arc for example, Ran not only has to deal with hypocritically being dishonest to her loved ones, but gets to shine by helping to solve a case.
• Though other characters also help in this regard, but there's more of a chance for Conan to grow out the mentality that he knows what's best and that sometimes he has to trust that Ran's presence will be more of help that hindrance, just as Ran has to occasionally accept that she can't always help Conan in a direct fashion.
• Ok, one possible consequence is the serious removal of heartbreaking drama.  First by removing the wall of secrecy between Conan and Ran, plus the eventual moment where their (currently platonic) relationship starts to mend and become stronger.  So we end all potential tension right?  Isn't that cute, but it's WRONG!!! (2 Stupid Dog reference:-))  All jerky kidding aside, yeah while the characters aren't perfect in terms of morality, I doubt Ran is going to try to be intimate with a 6 year old boy, even if said boy is her age.  In other words, You have a much more compelling bit of tension which doesn't have any easy solutions, unless you consider getting a permanent Apotoxin cure or defeating an Organization is easy.  Ran and Conan might have a stronger relationship with the secrets/lies gone, but until Conan is permanently cure and the threat is over, they couldn't really act on their feelings beyond friendship.  There's enough tension to be found when two people love each, but are kept apart from each other both literally and figuratively.  Just image being together in proximity but having to deny the deeper feelings for one another.  Seriously why fallback on lack of communication as a source of drama when a much stronger and challenging one is basically given to you in a pretty box, free of charge?

Heck, it's basically a situation where Gosho can definitely have his cake and eat it too.  This particular change not only does it actually still allows the series from being able to continue with some basic cases, but it gives him more material to keep things going as you put.  Hence why I feel my stance is legit if not factual.  If you could take any of these bullet points and provide an example of how they would pose a creative problem I'd welcome it.  If I'm factually wrong, I'd at least like to have more speculative perspective on the matter.

 

Otherwise I feel it best sums up my stance that padding the series out isn't a problem, just that maybe he could take more creative chances like actually getting Takagi and Sato together, while also ending the triangle with them and Shiratori.

 

My suggestion of change would be more notable yes, but unless someone could speculate some more cons like the ones I brought up last post (again inside the spoiler tags), then I'd think the Pros tend to suggest that the change is not only harmless, but helpful.

 

Still I'd encourage you to read more of my concealed comments in the last post when you can and if possible provide some rebuttal.

 

2. Actually I don't find it outright bad and that why I and possibly other like minded posters tend to be vocal in our criticism.  We want it to either end or at least stretch out in more creative ways so that we can keep liking/loving the series rather than having to take a break like Kogoro and Eri:-).

[Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?]

"The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use."

 

1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. 

 

"Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again..."

 

2. Right, but retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself.  Pointing to the Desperate Revival again, the arc redoes several elements that have been done, but with actual variation and freshness.

 

A. The first two times that Ran show suspicion, it basically was by the number.  Something happens to prompt her suspicion of Conan being Shinichi, she corners him in an attempt to get the truth and then after a trick to prove otherwise, she drops her suspicion or at least give up for the time being.

 

Heck, one major mistake she makes the first time around is letting Conan know that she's onto him, thus giving him space and time to find a way to disprove her claim.  And she makes that mistake for a second time (and 4th, but not my point).

 

With DR, we get an actual shake up with:

A. Ran having maintained the knowledge this time around realizing that approach him on the the matter will likely prompt him to trying to lie to her again.

B. We actually have Conan for the first time actually humoring the idea of telling her everything and not as some last resort (i.e. telling her so she can inform the train conductors about a bomb).

 

Plus the first two attempts to throw off her suspicion are simple tricks.  First time he gives Agasa the bowtie so he can call Ran with Shinichi's voice while Conan is present.  The second time, he has his mom coming to claim he's a relative of Shinichi.

 

This time around, we get Haibara using an decent Conan disguise with the means of imitating his kid voice, while the genuine article appears as Shinichi which really helps to make the 4th time around all the more underwhelming.

 

B. The first time around, Conan regained his true body long enough to solve a case only to revert back almost immediately.  This time around he has a lot more time to adjust to the possibility of being normal and being able to resume his life to a degree.

 

In short, it may rehash a couple things, plus ending with the status quo intact, but the writing and the energy makes it feel more impressive than it maybe should.

 

"...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one."

 

3. Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black.  Especially as:

 

A. I don't know, I think the story could have found a way to do the whole double cell phones which what is basically the only redeeming value of the 4th suspicion arc.

B. Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point.

 

Now I'll grant another concession.  As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact.  But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control?  And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad.

 

4. And I apologize for harping on the subject so much, it's just that so far, the only possible downsides I've seen to letting Ran come into the fold earlier would be.  By earlier lets say that during the time of the 4th suspicion arc (Episodes 398-400).  Instead of Ran approaching Conan like in the canon, it's merely the jumping point to begin her attempts to uncover the truth and find proof so that Conan can't rebuke her claim.

 

As to when the secret between them is over, can't really find a specific point, but maybe mid 400s sometime before Clash of Red & Black.

 

That said here's the suppose problems that make a request unreasonable.  Spoiler tag for compression sake:

 

 

A. It will limit the potential for new stories and thus resulting in having to end the story: This I believe is the big reason why this particular change has yet to occur.

Now if there are some really substantial stories in the future that can't work with Ran in the know, then ok. But if it's something like the 5th, 6th, 7th and so on rehash of "Ran has stumbled onto Conan's secret, now he has to pull off a jerkish move to throw her off" or to have yet another moment where Shinichi and Ran end up in such an intimate situation, we've been down both roads before. So yeah lets try some growth.

Or looking at the standard cases that Conan solves as Kogoro, compared to the earliest episodes with this structure, Ran barely gets in the way of Conan nowadays that her being aware, wouldn't really hurt the formula that much or at all.

More on why I consider this to be a poor reason in a bit.  Though as we are close to 1,000 episodes and files, I think Gosho should consider swallowing his pride and let the proverbial child grow.  Even at 500 episodes and 600 files this status quo needed to die, but again later.

B. It would mess up the status quo for the movie going audiences in the films: It wouldn't be the first anime series with movies to do so, and it's not that complicating of a change. Especially with the opening which gives exposition for said audience.

C. Ran and Kogoro will be in danger: Basically the biggest reason in story, with the mindset that if the organization finds out who Shinichi is, they'll sort out who else knows said secret and kill them.

But, the manga/anime demonstrates that Gin or any other member would be more likely to kill someone connected to the target without taking the time to see if they are aware of the organization or not. More on this in Pros 5, though there's another thing to consider in this regard.

If anything, living with them is more likely to make them a potential target than whether they know his secret or not. And considering he has other means of getting a lead, such as the connections that his own father has, it means he doesn't have a valid reason for staying with Ran & Kogoro other than ego and status quo.

D. Ran would become a hindrance (i.e. trying to help out, only to get in the way) or that Conan will let his guard down around her and compromise his cover: Yes and no. One reason for no, I'll cover in the pros list, but another rebuttal to this is that it works both ways.

Lets look at Episode 522 for example. Shinichi has to make a getaway from Ran, Kogoro & Kazuha before he reverts back to Conan and barely avoids getting caught, while having to have another antidote. Then the next episode has him in the same situation, only on the highway with more people who would witness the transformation.

So, basically if Ran was in on the secret by Episode 522, she and Heiji would have stood a better chance at helping Shinichi to perserve his secret and maybe even negating the need to have that antidote.

Heck, look way back in Episode 10. For a quick recap, a girl named Ryoko Akagi came to the detective agency and was hoping to find Shinichi as she apparently is his girlfriend. (which was really her trying get his attention for help in finding a missing person).

So Ran and Conan goes with her, back to her home. Conan shortly after, hides in the bathroom to call this client as Shinichi. Needless to say, Ran thinks that Shinichi has been seeing this girl, and upon finding that he is actually in the house tries to enter the bathroom to corner him.

As such, Conan has to spend quite a bit of time dodging her, and soon after, running out to conceal his secret. So yeah, keeping her in dark is necessary to prevent her from becoming a hindrance indeed.

 

 

I'd welcome some speculation for the sake of discussion and perspective, but for now those are the only downside I see for this particular bit of the status quo.  Now on the flipside here's the positives to changing things in this fashion and again spoiler tags to compress the post:

 

A. Yeah, sometimes people need to make hard choices for the greater good, but the ends don't always justify the means and sometimes the hero must not always slay the dragon to earn their happy ending but dealing with their own dark side.  In other words even if Shinichi/Conan and Ran's relationship to be is suppose to be viewed as healthy the length of her being kept in the dark doesn't help some to see it that way.

 

I mean I look at all Shinichi/Ran moments from the flashback to his first case up to the last day they spent together before well The Big Shrink.  Still a sign of a relationship that needs time to grow, but I actually see these two feeling like a team.  Equals.  Compare that to the present where he in deep and she is being deceive because of the unspoken policy that love interest to the main character must only be on the sidelines.  It would be problematic even if Gosho kept to the original game plan of the story being 7 months long, but the more this is kept from changing the more problematic feelings that arguably come from it.

 

Having the development occur sooner would mean reducing this unintentional vibe and help to make the two feel like partners and equals.  And frankly considering that we'll likely see the series ending around episode and file 10,000, waiting for the end to let Ran in on the secret doesn't allow any justice done for her reaction or the emotional consequences of Conan's actions.

 

B. It would seriously help both characters become better even.  Ran uncovering the secret and being brought into it means she gets more to do, and it would serve as a way to give Conan a chance for more humility by realizing that sometimes a person can be harmed by their loved ones emotionally than any physical damage brought on by the bad guys.

 

C. I keep hearing that it reduces the potential for new stories to the point that you might as well just end the whole thing.  Funny, I see some pretty good stories to help keep things fresh on the side and interesting:

• Relating to A and B, I don't care to see Ran post-confession hating and snubbing Shinichi/Conan cold turkey.  But for the time being there's the coping aspect to the whole thing.  Conan needs to accept that he caused Ran more pain than he tried to protect her from, while Ran not hating Conan is still coping with the fact that she was lied to and not trusted.  While I don't know how to have it come about, maybe keep this as the status quo with things relaxing between them during the London arc as it would be one of the few stories to be heavily altered, thus allowing that arc to still has something to use for an emotional moment.  Maybe near the end when Conan briefly becomes Shinichi, include a nice moment where the two decide to talk for a while and have their first friendly & honest conversation (i.e. talking in person without a voice changing device and no lies between them) since the whole Apotoxin thing happened.
• Now to give Conan some understanding, while he and those helping him might have gone overboard at one point or another with the whole secrecy thing, keeping it is still important to a point.  To illustrate such a detail, there could be several occasions where Ran's newfound involvement has her dealing with the irony that she was once being lied to in the interest of protecting everybody, now she has to contribute to that lie whether the person stumbling onto the secret is an acquaintance, friend or family member.  Heck, this could be the reason why she might be willing to grant Conan forgiveness to begin with and help her with having perspective on the matter.  Also an example of this, well the Shiragami story.  I still find the first two episodes (521-522) to be decent for reasons stated, but I really find that 523 is really the weaker part as it really doesn't even try make the proverbial journey interest.  At best it's something we don't see often, but other than treading old grounds without much to offer, meh.  Heck, The London arc had that love confession going on afterwards.  More on this in a bit.  But yeah one major change for Episode 522 is that it could even be the first time where Ran isn't only keeping the secret, but has to help Heiji to actively keep others (Kogoro and Kazuha) out of the loop.  What's more is the delicious sense of irony of the two main characters.  One has to learn to ease up on the secrecy, while one has to practice to help maintain it.  Irony and and opposite developments.
• So what to do with Episode 523?  Well we'd be without Shinichi story which would mean average mystery case right?  Wrong.  This could be say the first of many future cases since the Ski Lodge Murder Case (way back in Episode 84-85) where Ran steps up to help Conan (and in the case of this ep, Heiji) solve the case.  So within the new and improved version of the Shiragami arc for example, Ran not only has to deal with hypocritically being dishonest to her loved ones, but gets to shine by helping to solve a case.
• Though other characters also help in this regard, but there's more of a chance for Conan to grow out the mentality that he knows what's best and that sometimes he has to trust that Ran's presence will be more of help that hindrance, just as Ran has to occasionally accept that she can't always help Conan in a direct fashion.
• Ok, one possible consequence is the serious removal of heartbreaking drama.  First by removing the wall of secrecy between Conan and Ran, plus the eventual moment where their (currently platonic) relationship starts to mend and become stronger.  So we end all potential tension right?  Isn't that cute, but it's WRONG!!! (2 Stupid Dog reference:-))  All jerky kidding aside, yeah while the characters aren't perfect in terms of morality, I doubt Ran is going to try to be intimate with a 6 year old boy, even if said boy is her age.  In other words, You have a much more compelling bit of tension which doesn't have any easy solutions, unless you consider getting a permanent Apotoxin cure or defeating an Organization is easy.  Ran and Conan might have a stronger relationship with the secrets/lies gone, but until Conan is permanently cure and the threat is over, they couldn't really act on their feelings beyond friendship.  There's enough tension to be found when two people love each, but are kept apart from each other both literally and figuratively.  Just image being together in proximity but having to deny the deeper feelings for one another.  Seriously why fallback on lack of communication as a source of drama when a much stronger and challenging one is basically given to you in a pretty box, free of charge?

 

D. Not much to say here other than such a change helping to give the illusion and feel that anything can happen despite certain elements that do need to remain status quo.

 

In short the positives of this change would be:

• Dealing with what's arguably unfortunate implications (lack of trust, respect and love).
• Making two of the main characters even better, plus giving one more to do with screen and panel time with more of an agency.
• Helps to lessen any chance of creative reduction.
• Replaces cheap source of tension with real drama for what's left of a continuing series.
• Gosho might be under the impression that this development will herald the end of the series, but would ironically result in him having some stronger padding.  So much that you could use the series as a nice cushy bed and sleep like royalty.
• Also, loads and loads of irony.  Can be funny or just plain good for the soul. 

[Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?]

On 2/12/2015 at 4:12 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

 

While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really.  For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc.  And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone).

 

Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin.  But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear.

 

Now lets start with the Shiragami arc.  First two episodes are pretty alright.  Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder.  Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc.  Last episode is meh.  At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else.

 

The Desperate Revival?  We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate.  Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future).

 

And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form.  Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated.

 

In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body.  So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran.   As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen.

 

Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo?  Too damn bad.".

 

Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide.

 

Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.

[Does DC deserve to be known as the greatest anime ever?]

24 minutes ago, SamKel. said:

I think it is a testimont to how great the show truly is given how long it has lasted. One thing we must keep in mind, is that DC is the only long running anime that is not adventure themed. This is important because adventure appeals to almost all viewers. It is the same reason comedies and rom coms are so successfull because they appeal to everyone. However for a mystrey show to last for more than two decades is really quite remarkable.

 

When you look at a show like one piece and compare it to DC it's very easy to miss the brilliance of DC. Alot of times characters in adventure anime such as one piece are very one dimentional. They are just gives a tragic backstory and we are suppose to care for them from then on. In DC there are alot of characters with incredible depth you cant really find in other shows, an example of this between Conan, Haibara, Akai and Akemi, the relationship between any two of them is incredibly deep. 

 

I love DC. To me it is the best thing that has ever hit tv. But even i have to admit that it is far from perfect. The long running format is something that i actually prefer as new info about the BO becomes much more exciting. The main problem i think with the show is the lack of utilization of incredibly complex characters. The biggest example is Haibara. The fact that we know very little about her backstory is something that genuinly infuriates me. She is involved in the story in a way that rivals Shinichi's involvement but we dont really see mich of that. Either way i believe DC has the pitential to become the undisputed best, it is goin to be a classic no matter what and to me it is far ahead of anythingb else i have ever watched. But unfortunately it is far from perfect. 

 

Bold one: I don't know.  Length and popularity don't always equal quality.  Take the episodes of the Rugrats cartoon after it's first attempt at ending or the Twilight books.

 

Mind you I don't think it's the worst possible series.

 

Bold two: I think it would be over-simplifying to say that the series' length is the issue and but rather the issue is that the plot and structure that we got was meant for a shorter frame, especially since we're suppose to accept that continuity wise that not even a full year has passed.  Even if you trimmed the non essential material, there would still be a feel that more time than half a year passed.

 

To look at some counterpoints:

1. Simpsons and even Rugrats works because there was never even a semblance of a series plot.  You might have the occasional reoccurring arc, but other than that it's forgivable, especially as something like Simpsons is mostly suppose to make us laugh, whereas DC takes itself more serious in comparison.

 

2. Even with some quality issues found (like the anime's means off padding the arcs from Vegeta to Kid Buu), it allows more of a time passage.  Plus other than possibly Goku's desire to be the strongest in existence there's no singular goal for the series.

 

Some would say that's a low point because there's not as much focus, but on the flipside, unless a writer has both the clout (presuming that part of the reason for keeping the series going is because of higher ups demanding so) and integrity to finish the story in a reasonable frame, then it can arguably work against the story.

 

Shows like Dragonball or something like Young Justice on the other hand can conceivably have it both ways.  You can wrap up subplots and even have changes in the status quo without compromising the ability to do more stories.

 

 

Take Haibara for example.  There's been signs that she has info on both the Apotoxin and The Organization.  And to be fair to have her share that info with the cast would actually or potentially begin the ending of the series, so I can on the one hand appreciate keeping this piece of status quo in effect.  Though considering how long the series continued past her introduction and all major arc events since then, I feel the moment the manga starts to wrap up and we have Haibara sharing more info will feel anti-climatic, inorganic and sudden.

 

Not to mention that there are things that could be allowed some change without negative consequences.  Take the whole bit between Ran and Conan.  2 decades and she Gosho still won't allow her to be brought into the secret.  And I ask why?  Because ironically enough at least as I see it, it's basically something the would give readers the best of both worlds.

 

It's a significant enough change to shake things up noticeably and yet not so big as to require ending the series.  Heck, since Gosho is trying his best to pad the manga out, the change would open up quite a bit a padding fodder.  Even if Ran was brought into the fold just before the Bourbon arc, I'd argue that it would still benefit the series on the creative side. Additionally it allows Ran to have more substance as a character and provides much needed growth for Conan.

 

In short it's a move that good on multiple fronts, and lacks real downside.  If there is a downside I'd like to hear it as to be fair there might be factors I haven't considered.

[Does DC deserve to be known as the greatest anime ever?]

3 minutes ago, Neo Balthazar said:

i like do agree with this

but it feels like at times that the line between critiquing and hating gets blurred and mixed

 

True, but that doesn't mean one should instantly dismiss criticism either.  At the very least give one's critique a thorough reading and if you find it's disagreeable, then directly rebuke it rather than just ignoring or dismissing outright.

[Does DC deserve to be known as the greatest anime ever?]

1 hour ago, Neo Balthazar said:

things like DC (anime, cartoon, music, what ever forms of art ) are all subjective

if someone thinks DC is the best then thats fine

flaws and all

 

Of course.  Though I'd hope those fans aren't merely refraining from being critical out of fear that it makes them seem less like fans.

 

I mean one thing people need to keep in mind that being critical isn't automatically the same as being a hater.

[Does DC deserve to be known as the greatest anime ever?]

I enjoy it despite the latter half taking a decline and all, but the best?  Far from it I'm sorry to say for reasons of feeling that the latter half lacks creative energy.

 

True the main priority is to tell mysteries with a highly intelligent kid solving them with the story arc being secondary, but the fact is that the writer chose to ad story arc material rather than say having Conan just being a prodigy kid with an above average IQ, so assessing the quality (as I or other critical choose to do) is fair in that area.

 

Heck given how the more forgiving fans seem to prefer the mystery anyway, it might have been better to just have it being about a kid solving mysteries without the angle that said kid is really an old teen who's trying to get his life back to normal.

 

On 1/14/2016 at 3:15 AM, Heiji.Kudo said:

 

I totally agree with you. Though some find DC too long, it is good to have many episodes to pass time on. I too think that it is very good to pass time though I think I love DC a little more than just passing time. As you said, there are many flaws in the anime, I agree with you. I,myself, saw a lot of points which does not make any sense but still continue to watch it. No anime is perfect but to say that DC is the best, I will answer 'no', despite being in my favourite anime list

 

While the episode count doesn't help, I feel the greater problem is taking a story meant to work in a shorter run and trying to pad it out.  Even then padding it out wouldn't have to be problematic if the writer would take advantages of status quo elements that could be changed without compromising the ability to do more Detective Conan.

 

As a counterpoint the Dragon Ball series as a whole (counting Z, GT and Super) just feels easier to enjoy if only because it's set up allows you to have it both ways.  Ending an arc before half the decade ends, without having the end the series to do it.  It's not something I would consider best show material or contender to be honest (aside from The Pilaf Saga up to the Piccolo Jr. Saga).  I'd probably give to others like Gargoyles, Avatar The Last Airbender (sans the comic following it), Clannad, Young Justice or even Digimon Adventure and Tamer.  But just the same it's structured in a way that it's continuing nature isn't as problematic.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

On 9/24/2016 at 7:31 PM, eros1607 said:

Waste of potential is also a serious problem for many character in DC, especially Ai who now becomes more and more a babysitter. You can say that Ai doesn't figure out Subaru's identity is identical to the case Ran doesn't figure out Conan's identity. The problem is that more involvement of Ai = DC ends faster. It's a pity.

Even then, Haibara still gets to do more with her screentime (or in the case of the manga, paneltime) than Ran, such as helping to solve a case as EdogawaTenchi points out.  Plus more often than not she isn't brought into a story just for the sake of being there (having a lower rate of appearances than Ran).

 

But for what it's worth, I'm not really asking for Ran to appear more often, but just to give her appearances more substance.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

4 minutes ago, eros1607 said:

 

I am not against Ran being written better. I just have no idea about what Gosho should do to address the problem because fans have discussed these issues for several years but the solution from Gosho is still nowhere. Some flashbacks with Shinichi don't help. 

 

To be fair, he doesn't necessarily need to have Ran getting into the BO stuff straight away.  Start off by having her adjust to learning the truth about Conan after having her suspicions confirmed.  Namely having to do her part in maintaining the secret and ironically having to mislead anyone else who might come across it.

 

Plus, even if it might have been necessary early on, the fact is Conan, Haibara, Yukiko, Yusaku, Heiji and Agasa really never gave her a chance to prove she can handle being involved.  So I'd think there's much character potential in having to address the discomfort at being singled out, plus being lied to when others have found out and nothing came out of it.

 

Meanwhile, Ran may has fewer flaws than many character but she fails to entertain me (and other fans). That may be biased but personal taste cannot be judge by pure logical reasons.

 

Of course, and I wouldn't say her flaws are minor.  Just that I feel she has potential that is overlooked.

 

There's the fact that she did pretty well during the Vermouth arc.  But I feel that long period of time between "The Cornered Famous Detective! Two Successive Big Murder Cases" and "The Desperate Revival" demonstrates more than one would think.  Even if during "The Desperate Revival" she showed her suspicion, she kept it for a much longer than usual time to the point that Conan (sharp detective) didn't notice it until the arc began.  And that's with Ran having anyone to help her conceal her knowledge.  Just imagine how much better she'd do with support.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

1 minute ago, eros1607 said:

 

Maybe if Ran is more involved in the plot, that will not harm Conan solving filler cases. But before that, Gosho has to do a long build-up for Ran to involve (for example, the relation of Vermouth). The series has enough characters that are directly involved in the plot but being inactive as well. Haibara is the most obvious example. Although she is involved in Rum identity and the case of Haneda Kohji (and Asaka), she is not active like in 500 chapters ago and now everyone expect her to figure out Subaru and she is not allowed to do that yet, too critical for the plot. I think Gosho cares more about these character rather than Ran who involve in the plot through a proxy (Shinichi). And with many characters like that, Gosho can't help ignoring Ran to focus on Sera,  Amuro, Akai, Mary. The problem is now worsened with many new suspicious characters introduced recently, and will take spotlight soon.  

 

1. http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=857573#p857573

If the contents of that post is to be believe, there already is build up towards that change when Gosho is willing to allow it to happen, with all that's needed is a trigger.

 

2. I don't know.  I still think it's plausible that he does like Ran more than one would think and for the very reason that she's a safe predictable character in a series where other characters don't completely play by the rules.  Basically he likes her, but for the wrong reasons.

 

And I hate her fans when someone criticize Ran Mouri, they will assume that he/she is an Ai's fan and bash Ai, which is so childish.

 

True, but in fairness:

3. When you've suggested that you don't want the character you dislike to be written better, it does seem like your disdain is more out of principles than for legit reasons.

 

4. It doesn't help when you hold Ran's mistakes/flaws against her, while overlooking mistakes made by the other characters even if they are better for the most part.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

16 minutes ago, eros1607 said:

 

Gosho's favorite character is Conan, and his favorite characters that he wants to say what Conan doesn't say is Kogorou and Haibara. He said that in some SDB. I haven't heard that Gosho's favorite character is Ran.

 

Even if Ran is indeed Gosho's favorite, Ran is created so that Conan can stay at Mori's agency and solve filler cases. Therefore, Ran should be restricted so that Conan can still solve filler cases and Gosho can pad the story as long as possible. For example, Ran cannot figure out Conan's identity now, that will change the formula or the manga. Ran cannot have any male friends to hang out now (not boyfriend) because she is supposed to be solely for Shinichi. Ran cannot remember that she has met Sera 10 years ago now because this and that. Gosho will address these issue but not now and when the story is dragging out, Ran cannot do anything yet.   

I don't see how her being allowed more involvement with the plot would compromise Gosho's ability to pad out the series.

 

If anything it provides him with more padding fodder.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

Well among other things I feel one factor is that the series was originally suppose to be shorter.

 

And keeping the original intent might not have made her a better character, the problem would have been lessened severely.  But even then, Ran had a little more to do whether it was actually helping to save Conan (like when he pursued the kidnapper without having a means to defeat him) or serving as an obstacle when he's gathering clues.

[Why do some people not like Ran?]

The sad irony in this is that Gosho I've heard does consider Ran to be a favorite character of his and as I speculate, probably for the opposite reason she isn't well regarded by the fandom.

 

When you look at it from the angle that the characters are basically the children of the writer, Ran is the kid that Father Aoyama wants to desperately protect.

 

He's allowed his other children some room to grow and to be independent.  Even allowed Ran to do something interesting during the Vermouth arc in helping to save Haibara.  And as a result that might have actually shook him up.  Possibly afraid that she'd become a more interesting child who wouldn't play by the rules.  So instead of letting her possible growth continue, Gosho just tightens the leash.