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Haneda Kohji Case Theories

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We're not sure if it was linked like that, no info is there on it. BTW can the dying msg also implicate Chikara Katsumata?

The uploader also claimed about another room, not an adjoining room though.

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  • After the heated debate somehow the bottom line came out to be(For now, though I'm rather skeptical) that tap in Amanda's room was also left open.
  • Kohji's room was ransacked.
  • The dying message was found in Kohji's room, hidden behind broken stuff.
  • Does this alter the meaning of the dying message?

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7 hours ago, gg1998 said:

After the heated debate somehow the bottom line came out to be(For now, though I'm rather skeptical) that tap in Amanda's room was also left open.

"Also"? The result of the argument was, that the tap was opened in Amanda's room and the status of the tap in Kouji's room is unknown.

7 hours ago, gg1998 said:

Does this alter the meaning of the dying message?

No. The meaning in it of itself is still debatable ofc, but the meaning doesn't depend on which room it was made in.

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18 hours ago, Serinox said:

"Also"? The result of the argument was, that the tap was opened in Amanda's room and the status of the tap in Kouji's room is unknown.

No. The meaning in it of itself is still debatable ofc, but the meaning doesn't depend on which room it was made in.

  • Typo, so ignore that.
  • Not exactly, then if the dying message was written in Amanda's room, then it means the duo(Amanda and Haneda) were attacked in the same room. The killer got Amanda after subduing Kohji, then drugged him too. Kohji somehow makes the dying message and gets out, because the killer has already left.
  • Kohji dies back in his room. Rum clears the stuff in Amanda's room and leaves alone Kohji's room, I think Rum didn't even noticed the tap. Else he would have switched it off.
  • Now if the duo were fighting off the killer and Asaka didn't come in time for help then it means Asaka was probably bribed. Rum thought of Bribing Asaka and then killing Asaka after the deed is done, to cover his own tracks.
  • Now Rum can get the access in Amanda's room in two ways, by posing as a Bellhop/Room service or by posing as someone known to Amanda. In the first scenario, the dying message wouldn't even be there as Rum would be under the guise of a random bellhop, so the next scenario is more plausible.Now someone who is known to both Amanda and Kohji is a perfect guise for Rum to knock them off. None will be doubting him, thus we were only thinking that Rum's guise was known to only Kohji due to the tap interpretation, but now the guise gets known to both Amanda and Kohji. So Rum was probably a player in that Chess Tournament, who miraculously vanished even before the tournament/his match started.

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Okay, but you asked if it changed the meaning of the dying message and this doesn't change the meaning of the dying message. Of course the room that the dying message was made in being different changes stuff, but again, that was not what you asked.

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There are two thing, that I have thought about.

  • I once saw an episode in a crime series, where two hotel rooms in New York was connected with a door. Maybe Kohji's room and Amanda's room also were connected.
  • I think what happen was, that Kohji was in the bathroom in Amanda's room, when he happened to witness the murder of Amanda. The killer didn't knew that Kohji was in the bathroom, which gave Kohji a opportunity to take a pair of scissor and use the water and mirror to create the message. Then he tries to escape to his own room, when he thought the killer is distracted for a moment, but the killer sees Kohji and follows him to kill him.

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Eeey @Aries Bless I had a similar thought to your second point! It's a little different but kind of also adds on to your speculation :P

 

Well, here's my thought: (could be completely wrong but I thought there'd be no harm in mentioning it anyway :P)

 

IF Asaka = RUM, then it could explain why Amanda was killed as if nothing had happened because Asaka was Amanda's bodyguard and so, if Amanda didn't know Asaka was Rum, she would've nonchalantly let Asaka inside. Then Asaka could've drugged her or killed her in whatever subtle way, and as she was dying revealed his/her real identity. Maybe, for some reason (maybe Kohji was visiting and happened to be in the washroom when Asaka came) Kohji was in the washroom and overheard the conversation and realized that Asaka = RUM and hid in the washroom until Asaka/Rum left. Even if he did not know anything about the BO, he could've been able to tell that Asaka/Rum was a bad person by the conversation and chosen to hide. In the washroom, he might've tried to think about a way to leave a message to anybody out there (perhaps for the FBI/CIA since he knew that Amanda had those connections, and so they may see his message if they were to investigate her death) about Asaka/Rum. Noticing Amanda's mirror (her own mirror - or (if the manga mentioned it was the same hand mirror that Asaka was seen with) one that was given to her by Asaka? or Kohji's own mirror that he had on him), he has his idea on cutting it to make his message. After Asaka/Rum left, he opened the door to see Amanda dead (confirming the Asaka/Rum = bad person thoughts), and quickly started on the message by turning the tap on. However, as he started to make his message, Asaka/Rum came back and heard the water running (or he heard the water running and came back), and Kohji was so scared/startled that he quickly fled the scene without turning the tap off (as he was in such a hurried/terrified state). However, Asaka/Rum saw him running and followed him back to his room. Maybe the reason why Kohji still had time to leave his message is that he locked his door when he got to his room and finished his message in the washroom while Asaka/Rum was delayed in barging the door open. Then when Asaka/Rum barged in, Kohji fought hard and violently to leave the room in a mess to make his message blend in. Not wanting to leave behind any more traces, Asaka/Rum drugged Kohji with APTX. After that, maybe Asaka/Rum didn't have time to be all careful and check the scenes (Amanda's for her washroom/tap or notice the broken mirror in Kohji's room) because Kohji told Asaka/Rum that he had already called the police and that they're on his way, so Asaka/Rum had to escape quickly. 

 

That's my main thought :P But I have some secondary thoughts that could be possible, but I'm not sure either:

 

If the message was in tended for the FBI/CIA, Tsutomu-san could've been associated with the investigation if we assume that he had some connections to FBI (otherwise, why would Shuichi specifically join the FBI?). In his investigation he would've been the target of the BO (the "really bad people" that he warned his family about) and maybe it's because of them that he went into hiding. I think it's a possibility that he may be the uploader of the details on the internet, because he knows that the FBI doesn't have any further leads and so he's uploading them to see if anyone else out there could help solve the case. Maybe his involvement led to his family knowing the Haneda family (if he ever went to ask about Kohji) and that's how Shukichi got to know them, or maybe the Akai family and the Haneda family kind of knew each other beforehand (or maybe just Shukichi and Kohji? From chess?) and because of that, Tsutomu-san was interested in the case and involved in the investigation? Either way, Tsutomu realized the danger upon him and his family, went into hiding, and now is passively still trying to solve the case.

 

I have another thought that maybe Tsutomu is still alive and Mary is aware that Tsutomu isn't dead because of the site/case uploads, as if the uploads are a way for Tsutomu to tell her that he's still alive and/but still on that case. And she just keeps it to herself because telling her children will only harm them and put them more in danger.

 

Or....maybe  - IF Mary knows that Tsutomu is alive but in hiding somewhere - she could've told him about Conan and the case details uploaded because Tsutomu knows that Conan would likely see it? As if he's uploading them 'for' Conan as a last chance to solve the case? I'm thinking about this because we don't know when the case details have started to become uploaded. If it's been consistently uploaded for the past 17 years (that's a lot of dedication! lol) then obviously my speculation doesn't make sense, but if it's been uploaded recently, it's a bit coincidental as Mary has also recently been aware of Conan / that Conan = the "Wizard". 

 

I've also been reading some DCWiki and came across the theory that Tsutomu could be Kuroda (the "Fan Speculation" in http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Tsutomu_Akai), and maybe that's the reason why Kuroda also knows about/has access to the website. Even if my speculation about Mary knowing Tsutomu is alive is completely wrong, it's still possible that Kuroda is uploading the case details just for more brainpower. Maybe Kuroda's thoughts about Wasaka Rumi going camping 'not like that person at all' could refer to the fact that he's suspecting Wasaka Rumi to be somebody (for example, Asaka/Rum), and based on his knowledge of Asaka/Rum from his investigation back then, he/she didn't seem like the type to go camping with children.

 

Hmm, another thought. (Wow, so many haha) 

 

In regards to the "mistake" that Rum had made, there could be many possibilities. (1) They didn't check Amanda's washroom for the running water and didn't turn it off (he could've done so without traces if he used gloves), failing to hide a hint towards the mirror shard message. (2) They let Kohji witness Amanda's murder and escape, and had to deal with it by forceful means (out of the BO's neat/tidy M.O). (3) Something else...maybe to do with the case being able to resurface, or the pictures, or something about Tsutomu (him escaping them?). 

 

-------

That was a lot of speculation and lots of 'maybe's that are just wandering inside my brain :P It may be confusing since there were a lot of alternate ideas going on, so let me know if anything needs clarification! Feel free to disagree, add to it, or point out my mistakes - I tried to remember everything that happened but I'm not perfect :) Also, I may not have answers to your questions since I'm still thinking about it myself! So I may just admit that it was a faulty idea, hahaha...

 

 

 

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[I know I'm going to kick a Hornet's nest over here, but I've reasons to do so. If this post challenges your opinion don't bother replying(I don't like debating "How can you violate an established opinion(despite unverified)?" type users; if you feel my reasoning is flawed reply only then, with your corrections.]

I'm discarding the mirror as a dying message left by Haneda Kohji. I know it's a big step but I've a plethora of reasons to discard it.

  1. As You can see(the encircled places on the mirror by red) shards protruding from that place. The cut isn't clear and definite proof of a crack(not a cut by scissors under water).
  2. Some pieces are still stuck to the casing. The protrusions of the encircled(red) places gives clear indication that the mirror wasn't removed from the casing, else such small pieces wouldn't be stuck to the the frame. You can't cut this without removing it from the frame.
  3. The small piece which I encircled in yellow shows two definite cracks separated by a small distance, which further proves that the cracks were caused due to the impact.
  4. The pieces encircled in blue are the mirror's pieces, which was found nearby, another proof of the impact.(Agasa mentioned that smaller shards would be spilled everywhere as water molecules will break up the glass by travelling through the cracks and the constant flow of the tap will only increase this process, so smaller pieces would be spilled around the sink, but in the mirror we only find bigger pieces missing.)
  5. Removing the casing argument will also won't work due to the points I've risen on the point number 1.
  6. The black marked spot is showing another piece of shard residue sticking to the casing.
  7. I'm yet to be convinced that Kohji touched the mirror in the first place as nothing is said about his fingerprints on the mirror.

Does it mean the message is worthless?

  1. Absolutely Not. From BO Interest we already do know that "U MASCARA" were the letters in Rum's social name and Haneda knew Rum's social name.
  2. So Rum is someone from Haneda's acquaintance circle. 
  3. This Mirror message is one of the many co-incidences happened in this Manga.(Like Shinichi's very first trip to Tropical land on the eventful day.)

So then what was really Kouji's dying message?

  1. Checkov had already pointed this out, the cause of the bruises were a defensive scissor-grip.
  2. The bruise in palm indicates that Haneda held something(likely a Shogi piece) and hid it by holding the scissors in a defensive position and dies while it was in his grip.(That's why the bruises are still on the body.)
  3. This is the real dying message, but currently the object is missing. That object(shogi piece) is probably the clincher in the Kohji case.

Now time for some speculation.

Chikara Katsumata's name has Kanjis that have different readings.

This is the stuff according to DCW  " 勝又 力 " it can also be interpreted as "[KATSU MASARU TAERU]MATA [CHIKARA TSUTOMERU RIKIMU]".(the things in the square bracket is the alternate reading of that Kanji)

The Kun reading of the "Osho" piece of Shogi is "KIMI [HIKIIRU MOTTE HATA]"

 

Untitled.png

Palm.png

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I replied in the DCTP cbox about this, so here is a paraphrase.

 

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13211&p=874525#p874525

Mirror dying message = red herring coincidence is interesting, but I think the mirror can still be cracked in a controlled fashion. You press the edge of the scissor to thin glass in order to break it in a controlled fashion under water. And if it was a coincidental fracture from being dropped, where are the missing letter pieces nearby?

But I agree the mirror which has a backing is worrisome. The faucet being on in the "wrong room" may be a signal that the clue could be coincidence, and the faucet was not used at all to crack it. And, while not a real clue, the name of the hotel "Juke" is an English word for "a feint", like a sidestep or trick used to pass someone in football/soccer. It basically means red herring. Yikes!. That leaves us with the hand clue which I think is solid.

 

 

 


Image

 

 

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The method that you mentioned still won't explain the smaller fragments still sticking on the casing of the "U MASCARA" part. To be elaborate, we can see exactly similar residue in the black-boxed area.

We also can't find the residue of the glass containing "EL" of Juke Hotel.

The explanation that I can give is just like the "EL", "U MASCARA" had not been photographed separately(like the mirror or Kohji's hand). 

Juke's presence is worrisome as you've mentioned.

But I also tend to think that this coincidental mirror clue revealed a good part of Rum's social name, that's why BO boss and Rum are so edgy about it.

 

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On 6/21/2017 at 1:14 AM, Otaku3670 said:

The method that you mentioned still won't explain the smaller fragments still sticking on the casing of the "U MASCARA" part. To be elaborate, we can see exactly similar residue in the black-boxed area.

We also can't find the residue of the glass containing "EL" of Juke Hotel.

The explanation that I can give is just like the "EL", "U MASCARA" had not been photographed separately(like the mirror or Kohji's hand). 

Juke's presence is worrisome as you've mentioned.

But I also tend to think that this coincidental mirror clue revealed a good part of Rum's social name, that's why BO boss and Rum are so edgy about it.

 

The method I described does work. You are basically cracking glass along a line of pressure provided by pressing the edge of scissors against it. You can't expect clean breaks without scoring the glass, not will all the pieces fall out, nor will all the residue fall out either. There is also probably some sort of glue-like substance meant to hold the mirror into the backing too.

 

Quick cbox transcript

Kor: planned to wait with another rum poll until 1000 but since it doesn't seem 1000 will have anything to do with that, and it's so far away (if gosho delays it even more, pokemon may reach 1000 episodes before we reach 1000 files ), I may do it in the upcoming days instead. 22 Jun 17, 12:34
Kor: We don't have that much more hints than the last time (file 920), but we do have more characters, so... 22 Jun 17, 12:34
Kor: results from the first ever RumPoll™ http://s23.postimg.org/ckgnb5v57/Screen_Shot_2015_04_01_at_12_32_32_AM.png 22 Jun 17, 12:35
Kor: top options were: A person who switched places with Kuroda mid-coma, and Another character that appeared in the past 22 Jun 17, 12:36
Chek: I think the Kohji case changed a lot. 22 Jun 17, 12:47
Chek: It provided a direction: could I see X character kdoing this crime. Also the revealof three suspects helped too I think. 22 Jun 17, 12:50
Chek: Have you redone the poll any? 22 Jun 17, 12:50
Kor: not entirely sure what this question means 22 Jun 17, 13:03
Chek: Sorry, I meant have you rerun the poll to see how beliefs have evolved in the intervening time? 22 Jun 17, 16:19
Kor: About Rum? Not yet. 22 Jun 17, 16:26
Kor: Rundown of story relevant plot results: 22 Jun 17, 16:28
Kor: "What's your speculation regarding Kuroda?" <--- top result: He's another some sort of an agent who will fight against the BO eventually
Kor: Rum's identity: as noted below. 22 Jun 17, 16:28
Kor: "What's Chiba's first name?" <--- top result: Keiji 22 Jun 17, 16:29
Kor: "What do you think is the true purpose behind APTX 4869?" <--- top result: reverse aging 22 Jun 17, 16:29
Kor: "What do you think is Rum's main objective?" <--- top result: Find infiltrators or traitors in the organization 22 Jun 17, 16:30
Kor: "What do you think was the affiliation of Shuichi's father?" <--- top result: He was in the Black Organization 22 Jun 17, 16:32
Kor: "Who do you think is Wakasa Rumi?" <--- top result: Asaka (but not Rum) 22 Jun 17, 16:33
Kor: some more trivial matters: "Who do you think is the character with the odd eyes that is hinted at the latest movie 20 promotional video?" <--- top result was Rum (second from the top is a movie only character). 22 Jun 17, 16:36
Kor: Also the Scotch poll has a bit of a muddy conclusion. https://image.prntscr.com/image/XF5TrtAISee_REBaMzr0rA.png <--- Akai was kinda responsible (and also kinda not), and Scotch also killed himself, and also Amuro misunderstood  22 Jun 17, 16:37
Kor: wait forgot something in my "random crap we're still waiting for Gosho to resolve and it's part of the akai family stuff" list from a few weeks ago. Over 100 files ago we got that sentence from from MG for Masumi to tell conan that she's “the little sister from outside the domain”. Conan still has no clue what it means and he hasn't really pondered about that at all. 22 Jun 17, 16:47
Kor: Considering Conan already figured out who MG is (and by figure out, I mean, he overheard Masumi refer to that girl as mom), not sure he really needs to decode that sentence. Wonder if Gosho forgot about it. 22 Jun 17, 16:48
Chek: That's super interesting. I'd love to see the Rum poll rerun. 22 Jun 17, 17:24
Chek: And maybe a what is the meaning of the dying message mirror: ASACA RUM, WAKASA RUMI, KARASUMA, part of a bigger message, was not intentionally made, etc 22 Jun 17, 17:26
Chek: The not intentionally made theory is pretty interesting, although I am zero% buying the reasons people are presenting like the so called debris 22 Jun 17, 17:33
Chek: As if a mirror is expected to crack perfectly without residue and have all the broken pieces fall out neatly. Besides, some of the markings could be material that sticks the mirror to the backing. And it is concerning that none of the "cut out letters" are shown around the mirror, although other pieces that don't matter to the message like the heart and the wing are. 22 Jun 17, 17:36
Kor: ugh, I can buy Akai and Conan reaching the wrong conclusion about the meaning of the message, but this is a mystery series. If a clue is actually not a clue at all but something of pure coincidence then that just makes the author a dick. 22 Jun 17, 17:37
Chek: The surprise might be then hand clue I pointed out a bit ago. 22 Jun 17, 17:37
Chek: My thoughts on the mirror being a "juke" are as follows. 1) The edges of the frame of the mirror are more undamaged than I would like them to be if the miror was cut or poked with scissors. 2) Second, the sink being on in the wrong room presents a potential problem to the mirror clue's creation if and only if Kohji didn't have a reasonable opportunity and sensible plan to take advantage of it. We can't resolve this until we know the layout. 22 Jun 17, 17:41
Chek: There would also have to be another reason for the sink to be left on. 22 Jun 17, 17:41
Chek: A red herring mirror + a juke that none of the three presented suspects are guilty. Maybe that's the theme of the arc. 22 Jun 17, 17:43
Chek: Mary coincidentally saying the same thing as Gin ... This arc might be all about the fakeouts, where Gosho didn't bother before as much.
 

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On 2017-6-23 at 4:27 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

The method I described does work. You are basically cracking glass along a line of pressure provided by pressing the edge of scissors against it. You can't expect clean breaks without scoring the glass, not will all the pieces fall out, nor will all the residue fall out either. There is also probably some sort of glue-like substance meant to hold the mirror into the backing too.

 

 

No, my gripe is that, if you look the black-boxed portion of the image you would also find the shard residue sticking to it. That portion of the mirror is also missing but had no writing. Only reason that I find plausible is, it could have broken after the impact and flew off due to the impact force.

I'm getting exactly same circumstantial evidence in the "U MASCARA" part.

There's another big piece missing on the right side of the mirror(refer the second image) which is also not shown in the follow up image.

So, I'm safely assuming the impact force was so massive that it did send bigger shards out of the near vicinity due to their increased momentum and thus countering the air drag a bit more than smaller shards. So that's why we get the wing and the heart near the mirror and the "U MASCARA" part a bit further(that's why it's not covered).

 

But still these are all circumstantial stuff, the clincher is probably the backing, the marks of glue still on the backing, the stuff not being found on Kohji's bathroom(Only his room was messed up, nothing is said about the bathroom, where the sink is.), the presence of the running water in the wrong room.

 

 

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