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Chekhov MacGuffin

Suspicious characters! Discussion about Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, and others.

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23 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Still, she's dealing with a completely different opponent that she has never fought against before,... a teen in a child's body, who should be limited in every way, which makes it easier for her to underestimate his capabilities(yet he proved how well he could utilize his surroundings[Gadgets, allies etc.] to the point that he could be a "Silver Bullet").

Eh, I think there's a limit to how long that startlement would last, in terms of if affecting her ability to take him on.

 

23 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I think it's a big stretch to jump that far ahead with the assumption that Rumi is completely beyond Conan level, based on a one-time deal where she hints him(while being on equal ground with him(since in File 966, she had a time advantage)). Subaru has shown to be on Conan's level, and even he has hinted to Conan before. Sure, we didn't see what gave Rumi the idea with the balancing toy, but that doesn't really tell us the level she is in comparison to Conan(considering that she really just hinted at one part of the trick).

 

I still don't think this is a matter of her getting smarter, but rather her revealing how smart she is. I still can't see her as inferior in any way during the Fullmoon showdown, just because Conan took her by surprise(due to her underestimation). Even a great genius can miscalculate and underestimate(especially when most of their data is controlled and limited[Since Conan made sure that she didn't know of his true awareness, and that she didn't find out about his secret counter-attack]).

Because Subaru is Shuichi, and Shuichi was always shown to be Shinichi's/Conan's equal (at least, that's how I took it). Thus, I get some instances of him outdoing Shinichi/Conan. Vermouth never struck me as Shinichi's/Conan's equal—she's 0 for 2 in trying to kill Shiho/Ai, while he's only 0 and 1 in trying to catch her. Oh, but now she's a case solver who can beat Shinichi/Conan to the punch? And what's with this testing of Shinichi/Conan? She already knows how smart he is.

 

But considering that was all Shinichi/Conan needed to then solve the case, I assume that she already figured the rest out.

 

That's what I'm ultimately not for, in terms of this theory. It means to me that she was holding back during the Vermouth arc climax (and I mean even more than her holding back by trying to make sure Shinichi/Conan was not harmed or killed)—in effect, keeping herself from a higher chance of achieving her goal... and there's no hint she was holding back any intelligence, that she was smarter than she seemed, then.

 

23 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

There's no precedent that proves otherwise either. I can't take Pisco's knowledge of the SB research process as fact, since he wasn't a research-mate. In the end, I prefer not to overlook any possibilities(just because they don't have a precedent).

I guess we'll just have to wait to hear when Mary was shrunk. Her case is already different, because she was in her late 40s/50s when she was shrunk.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Actually, it's clearly shown in the manga too(File 351):

DhpqSjD.jpg

I'm saying that this flashback scene is most likely real(why else make it so elaborate for a lie), but the story about Chris disguising as this mystery man is fake(Sharon was most likely covering up her secret meeting with this man, and since there was rumors about her bad relationship with Chris, this "meeting with a man" story probably hit the news and Sharon covered it up with the "chris" lie). Point is, that's not necessarily the husband's real appearance(because he might be someone else), and there was a memorial/grave of her husband in the US.

Oh, it's in the manga... strange I didn't remember that.

 

Well, that's a scene we may very well see as we get closer to the end of DC... better keep an eye out for characters seen at the angle of that man, and compare them to this panel from File 351.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

The criteria doesn't have to be Sharon's namedrop though. It can be anything Vermouth-related. And if he keeps the ambiguity of Rumi's identity beyond File 1000, I personally don't see any harm in that.

 

That case served as a setup for her Rum plot involvement and Subaru investigation, but again, since we don't really know what's inside her pocket yet, it's still early to say that she's tied to Kohji(that's my current suspicion though(which can easily change if isn't a shard), since the shard shape matched well with the object shape).

But a case from 17 years ago? In America? Namedropping "Sharon Vineyard" would be perfect for that (red herring hint or otherwise). "Anything Vermouth-related" is pretty vague, compared to that, lacking in the time period and geography.

 

I still would've expected, if she turns out to be Rumi, for Vermouth to have actually alluded to Koji and the case, especially since the main theme of that case was an old grudge from the past.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Merely stating that idea. So far at least, Haibara might be starting to see Vermouth in a different light. Rumi hasn't shown any treatment of Haibara that would contradict with Vermouth's wish to want her dead, and she clearly respects her promise to Conan enough to not directly go back on her words.

But not enough to try to indirectly weasel out of it—at least at the time of Mystery Train, killing Shiho/Ai mattered more to her than her promise to Shinichi/Conan. Who knows, that may have changed, but, just like with her not referencing Koji during A Song Called ASACA, she doesn't hint that she's no longer going to try to kill Shiho/Ai, even in a scenario where she easily could.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

It's a disguise, so she's bound to look different(no matter how the difference is portrayed). Subaru's closed-eye-style would also qualify as too unique of a style to be same guy that recently(at that time) "died".

His were closed because if he opened them, it'd be apparent who he was.

 

I was talking about her wide-open eyes—they're not the same thing as Shuichi/Subaru keeping his eyes shut.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

And only one being currently alive that Haibara has sensed in the past. The rest isn't precedent, like how we knew beforehand that Akai was sensed by her(at the end of Contact with BO), to figure out that Subaru could be him.

 

Don't know where you are going with this(by suggesting another "Haibara"), but the only answer that would explain the BO trigger is if Asaka was a former BO member. Don't see why she would happen to get involved with a Shogi player, but regardless of that, it's a stretch to assume that Haibara can sense her(when we really have only a select few confirmed that she could sense: Pisco, Vermouth, Akemi, Rye, Bourbon). Since she couldn't sense Numabuchi(who she never met before), and openly expressed concern over that matter(as if it's worth considering), I think the pattern makes sense that she can only sense people that she has met at some point(Pisco met her as a baby, and Rei was seen with Elena before she left, so he could've met Shiho). Not stating this pattern as fact, but I feel like "Asaka" would be a random addition to this selected people that Haibara has sensed.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

There's no precedent that proves otherwise either.

 

And that's what I'm waiting for—those answers about her past.

 

But there is so much we still don't know about this sense of hers, or where this BO sense came from, to begin with, and why she can pick it but. It hasn't been confirmed that she won't sense anyone that she's never met. Until she literally says that to Shinichi/Conan, we can't say that she can only sense certain people.

 

But it probably wouldn't be a random feeling that she picked up—a feeling of strong negative emotion(s).

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2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Eh, I think there's a limit to how long that startlement would last, in terms of if affecting her ability to take him on.

 

Because Subaru is Shuichi, and Shuichi was always shown to be Shinichi's/Conan's equal (at least, that's how I took it). Thus, I get some instances of him outdoing Shinichi/Conan. Vermouth never struck me as Shinichi's/Conan's equal—she's 0 for 2 in trying to kill Shiho/Ai, while he's only 0 and 1 in trying to catch her. Oh, but now she's a case solver who can beat Shinichi/Conan to the punch? And what's with this testing of Shinichi/Conan? She already knows how smart he is.

 

But considering that was all Shinichi/Conan needed to then solve the case, I assume that she already figured the rest out.

Vermouth has never been measured to Conan in a situation where they are in equal grounds, equal cluelessness, and where we could clearly see who is above the other in terms of deduction(like a case, where Vermouth isn't hindered by herself due to trying to uphold a character disguise). So far, all our arguments was based on incidents that involved so many factors + ambiguity. Akai and Conan had multiple interactions and moments where we could clearly tell the level they are at compared to each other.

 

Overall, my final say is,.... We never had actual evidence that Vermouth is inferior to Conan in terms of intelligence,... just like how Rumi's moment in File 988 is just one clear instance that at most can tell us that she's at least on Conan's level.

 

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I guess we'll just have to wait to hear when Mary was shrunk. Her case is already different, because she was in her late 40s/50s when she was shrunk.

I don't think we need to wait to know that Mary shrank with APTX. That's pretty clear to me(even without 100% confirmation). In any case, that's irrelevant, because the point was that the possibility that Asaka shrank isn't that unlikely at the moment(especially when we don't know anything about the SB prototype, other than its foundation being what APTX research is based of). 

 

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Oh, it's in the manga... strange I didn't remember that.

 

Well, that's a scene we may very well see as we get closer to the end of DC... better keep an eye out for characters seen at the angle of that man, and compare them to this panel from File 351.

11 chapters later(File 362), we have this mayor introduced, talking about liquor :P

2oQjg3t.jpg

 

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But a case from 17 years ago? In America? Namedropping "Sharon Vineyard" would be perfect for that (red herring hint or otherwise)...

 

I still would've expected, if she turns out to be Rumi, for Vermouth to have actually alluded to Koji and the case, especially since the main theme of that case was an old grudge from the past.

It's not a rule that he has to name-drop everything in just the setup case for an arc-subplot. If we were to take an example from the Bourbon arc. First stage was finding out about Bourbon's antipathy with Akai,... and then literally at the end of the arc,... second stage is the name drop of Scotch(the reason for the antipathy). Similarly to that, Gosho doesn't have to name drop everything surrounding Rumi's grudge and backstory right away.

 

I agree that there was a fitting opportunity there for whatever hatred she has against Rum to get alluded to there, but I still prefer ambiguity,... I want to be challenged and have fun deducing and debating(like right now).

 

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But not enough to try to indirectly weasel out of it—at least at the time of Mystery Train, killing Shiho/Ai mattered more to her than her promise to Shinichi/Conan. Who knows, that may have changed, but, just like with her not referencing Koji during A Song Called ASACA, she doesn't hint that she's no longer going to try to kill Shiho/Ai, even in a scenario where she easily could.

Which hasn't been the case yet. Killing Haibara as Rumi would be a direct promise-breaker. Letting Bourbon choose if he is gonna destroy the link(to the train), after forcing Sherry into a car full of bombs, or not is indirect. Would be funny to see how she would've acted if Ashizawa was holding Haibara instead.

"Stab her... I can do it for you if you want... but not really...so Stab her!"

 

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His were closed because if he opened them, it'd be apparent who he was.

Not really. He's wearing a disguise, so his opened eyes wouldn't reveal those eye-bags(as seen during Scarlet and beyond).

Mystery Train was a different situation, where Subaru wasn't wearing his disguise, just a wig and glasses(since he recently took em off to face Bourbon).

Point is, from the start, one wouldn't picture him as the same guy because of his distinctive feature. Since the Vermouth theory would imply that Rumi is a disguise, that could simply be the result of Gosho's artistic touch to her eye expression, when Vermouth wears coloured contact lenses for the Rumi disguise.

 

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But there is so much we still don't know about this sense of hers, or where this BO sense came from, to begin with, and why she can pick it but. It hasn't been confirmed that she won't sense anyone that she's never met. Until she literally says that to Shinichi/Conan, we can't say that she can only sense certain people.

 

But it probably wouldn't be a random feeling that she picked up—a feeling of strong negative emotion(s).

Well, let's start with baby steps. I just mentioned the pattern I interpreted. Based on the whole ordeal with Numabuchi(which was seemingly alluding to future explanations as to why she couldn't sense him), all the people she has sensed and the moments of inconsistencies, what do you get from it?

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  • Rumi isn't Vermouth. Rumi is someone who wants to attract attention of Conan, (else her introductory case would make no sense at all, Conan even deduced that someone other than the robbers did open the trap door.)
  • There's no point in for Vermouth to judge Conan's ability, cause she already knows his ability first-hand.(The first case with Rumi would become irrelevant.)
  • If Vermouth was really Rumi, then why did Conan found the receipt in her apartment? A BO member doing a covert op and knowing fully well about capabilities of Conan, can't be so reckless to keep the receipt lying around the floor.
  • Why she's bound to portray herself as clumsy? It doesn't serve any purpose in-fact it's counter productive cause Rumi's actions in crunch situations betray her clumsiness.
  • Why did Rumi react to Kuroda's continuous provocations? If you say that it was her way of obtaining information from Kuroda then the counter point is in doing so she became more suspicious than before. If she's really Vermouth then she has the whole logistical support of BO and all the time she needs, but she's rushing recklessly like a hungry shark which contradicts the assumption that Rumi is Vermouth.
  • Her name attracted Kuroda's attention and the Kurda's remarks made sure that he knows Rumi well enough to comment on her preferences. We don't have any proof or hint that Kuroda and Vermouth ever clashed, but something funnier seems to have appeared.
  • Kuroda was in a Coma for "10 years."
  • Rumi in her maiden introduction, mentioned the term "10 years."
  • I guess the hint to solve the puzzle is this 10 years stuff.

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4 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Overall, my final say is,.... We never had actual evidence that Vermouth is inferior to Conan in terms of intelligence,... just like how Rumi's moment in File 988 is just one clear instance that at most can tell us that she's at least on Conan's level.

 

Well, I'll definitely consider her at that level if she turns out to be disguised as Rumi. Until then, though, those two instances of her failing to meet her objective because of Shinichi/Conan (429–434/345 and 818–824/701–704), for me, put her in a lower echelon.

 

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I don't think we need to wait to know that Mary shrank with APTX. That's pretty clear to me(even without 100% confirmation). In any case, that's irrelevant...

Ah, so we're not talking about Mary. Gotcha.

 

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

...the possibility that Asaka shrank isn't that unlikely at the moment(especially when we don't know anything about the SB prototype, other than its foundation being what APTX research is based of). 

Silver Bullet? We know very little, certainly. That's why I won't be too incredulous if a character shows up and is eventually revealed to have been shrunk by Silver Bullet in the past.

 

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

11 chapters later(File 362), we have this mayor introduced, talking about liquor :P

2oQjg3t.jpg

So... do you think he's Anokata? :P

 

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

It's not a rule that he has to name-drop everything in just the setup case for an arc-subplot. If we were to take an example from the Bourbon arc. First stage was finding out about Bourbon's antipathy with Akai,... and then literally at the end of the arc,... second stage is the name drop of Scotch(the reason for the antipathy). Similarly to that, Gosho doesn't have to name drop everything surrounding Rumi's grudge and backstory right away.

I just thought it was a good place for that namedrop, regardless of who Rumi turns out to be.

 

6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Killing Haibara as Rumi would be a direct promise-breaker. 

I don't think she's overcome her desire to see Shiho/Ai die, though. If Rumi is revealed to be Vermouth, I'm gonna ask where Vermouth gained the capacity to resist such an easy opportunity to get what she wanted (and no, it's not that promise—vague words can easily be skirted around)—she just has to arrange things just right, behind the scenes, and get the right situation set up, and she'd get away with it. Especially if she's suddenly Shinichi's/Conan's equal.

 

6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Would be funny to see how she would've acted if Ashizawa was holding Haibara instead.

"Stab her... I can do it for you if you want... but not really...so Stab her!"

There probably would've been more a deadpan delivery than a creepy one, on her part, if that was the case. :P

 

6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Point is, from the start, one wouldn't picture him as the same guy because of his distinctive feature. Since the Vermouth theory would imply that Rumi is a disguise, that could simply be the result of Gosho's artistic touch to her eye expression, when Vermouth wears coloured contact lenses for the Rumi disguise.

Look, I just see her eyes during those intense scenes, and it just gives me the feel of a different character—and Rumi being a different character is my preference. Vermouth's already complex and all that—no need to be gratuitous with that at the expense of a new character, when Vermouth's already quite popular. I'll roll with it if your theory turns out to be true, but it's just not my preference. 

 

:huh: 

 

6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Based on the whole ordeal with Numabuchi (which was seemingly alluding to future explanations as to why she couldn't sense him), all the people she has sensed and the moments of inconsistencies, what do you get from it?

Eh, that just struck me as the first hint of what we now see quite often from Shiho/Ai—her becoming accustomed to a normal life (well, normal as much the world of DC can be when you're around Shinichi Kudo/Conan Edogawa, as he pursues a criminal organization that can turn you into a child).

 

When Shinichi/Conan says, in that case, "I thought you were able to smell the members of the Organization," he doesn't say "all members," he just says "the members." Who knows what those abilities of hers were like, before she shrunk?

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1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

So... do you think he's Anokata? :P

Never xD

 

I personally think the boss is a shrunken adult and that Daikoku Rentaru is his double that secretly represents him in all matters of affair. I'm thinking he was the mystery man that Sharon met, and he's probably half-japanese(seeing as he looks foreign in the flashback and the alias "Daikoku Rentaru" would seem questionable if he was a complete foreigner).

In that case, he could fit with the "former foreign minister" description that Heiji gave to one of the names in the guestbook.

 

As for the whole "7th child" interpretation of the kanji for "Rentaru", maybe it's a literal term for Rentaru being the boss' seventh child, or he's the youngest among the seven original members of the BO(since the song was referring to 7 "crows").

Would be interesting if Sharon and Rentaru are 2 out of 7 children of the Boss(and the boss thinks that Chris is his granddaughter), while Bourbon only has the info that Vermouth is the Boss' direct daughter. I personally believe that Vermouth is hiding the halted-aging from the Boss.

 

Went full-on speculation-mode there :P

 

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I don't think she's overcome her desire to see Shiho/Ai die, though. If Rumi is revealed to be Vermouth, I'm gonna ask where Vermouth gained the capacity to resist such an easy opportunity to get what she wanted (and no, it's not that promise—vague words can easily be skirted around)—she just has to arrange things just right, behind the scenes, and get the right situation set up, and she'd get away with it. Especially if she's suddenly Shinichi's/Conan's equal.

Me neither. There's no indication to a change at all.

 

Maybe her whole Rumi disguise goal is such a pressing matter, that she doesn't have time to focus on orchestrating Haibara's death.

 

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Look, I just see her eyes during those intense scenes, and it just gives me the feel of a different character—and Rumi being a different character is my preference. Vermouth's already complex and all that—no need to be gratuitous with that at the expense of a new character, when Vermouth's already quite popular. I'll roll with it if your theory turns out to be true, but it's just not my preference. 

I personally prefer this idea. Vermouth is a favorite(mine and Gosho's), so to see her get involved and developed would be the perfect setup to future revelations of her past, considering that we are close to the final arc(and we are seemingly getting 3 high-ranked BO members as Rum suspects). I don't think we need to always have new characters and ignore the already "popular" ones.

 

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Eh, that just struck me as the first hint of what we now see quite often from Shiho/Ai—her becoming accustomed to a normal life (well, normal as much the world of DC can be when you're around Shinichi Kudo/Conan Edogawa, as he pursues a criminal organization that can turn you into a child).

I personally see that as a foreshadowing to when it would happen(post-Mystery-train), since she didn't seem as adjusted at that time(especially when she was aware that Vermouth was nearby). Considering that she never met Numabuchi before, I feel like that plays into it.

 

Now that she's ignoring her BO warning(that she could barely get since her fake death), what she was afraid of happening at that time is seemingly happening now(because Vermouth is definitely danger to her).

 

6BRsCvv.jpg

 

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When Shinichi/Conan says, in that case, "I thought you were able to smell the members of the Organization," he doesn't say "all members," he just says "the members." Who knows what those abilities of hers were like, before she shrunk?

As image above shows, she seemed to rely on that sense a lot, which makes me assume that it was very effective before she shrank. Now that she's away from the criminal life and is assumed dead, like she said in file 856, that probably played into the dissensitization. How she was able to sense anything from Rumi now is beyond me(looked like Gosho forced the opportunity to use Vermouth's BO-ness to mislead us into thinking Rumi is Rum). Maybe Rumi's grudge was simply that strong that it couldn't be bypassed?

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We are forgetting two very very important links in this Rum arc.

  • Kuroda was in Coma for 10 years.
  • Rumi emphasised during her introduction that she's "10 years older than the Homeroom-teacher."
  • I can really see Gosho giving us a hint about the dynamics between Kuroda and Rumi.
  • This hint also nullifies the chance of Rumi being Vermouth. 

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2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Never xD

 

I personally think the boss is a shrunken adult and that Daikoku Rentaru is his double that secretly represents him in all matters of affair. I'm thinking he was the mystery man that Sharon met, and he's probably half-japanese(seeing as he looks foreign in the flashback and the alias "Daikoku Rentaru" would seem questionable if he was a complete foreigner).

In that case, he could fit with the "former foreign minister" description that Heiji gave to one of the names in the guestbook.

 

As for the whole "7th child" interpretation of the kanji for "Rentaru", maybe it's a literal term for Rentaru being the boss' seventh child, or he's the youngest among the seven original members of the BO(since the song was referring to 7 "crows").

Would be interesting if Sharon and Rentaru are 2 out of 7 children of the Boss(and the boss thinks that Chris is his granddaughter), while Bourbon only has the info that Vermouth is the Boss' direct daughter. I personally believe that Vermouth is hiding the halted-aging from the Boss.

 

Went full-on speculation-mode there :P

Well, at the very least, if that guestbook in the Mermaid case (279–283/222–224) ever comes up again, we'll know something's up.

 

Oh, boy... if he got made a fool of, there... :lol:

 

Indeed. :D

 

2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Maybe her whole Rumi disguise goal is such a pressing matter, that she doesn't have time to focus on orchestrating Haibara's death.

Well, if that's so, I'd have to dock her points for not being able to multitask, in this situation.

 

2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I personally prefer this idea. Vermouth is a favorite(mine and Gosho's), so to see her get involved and developed would be the perfect setup to future revelations of her past, considering that we are close to the final arc(and we are seemingly getting 3 high-ranked BO members as Rum suspects). I don't think we need to always have new characters and ignore the already "popular" ones.

Eh, the ones teased during the Vermouth arc and during Scarlet Showdown are good enough for me.

 

Yeah, I get that concern—I've seen displeasure at the classic characters being left on idle while the new characters take the spotlight. But in this case? I think Vermouth's fine as she is—she's already enmeshed in things pretty substantially. She's already got grudges against important BO figures, or has relationships of discontent and discord, past and present. Vermouth's always going to have a role to play—she's not in danger as a character—and now we potentially have a vengeful fugitive, on the run from the BO for 17 years, looking to make Rum pay for taking away the life of someone precious to her. Vermouth's already got the cold-blooded and even vengeful part of her personality, and has people precious to her. Why not have this new character be a wild card, choosing vengeance over the pursuit of justice (Shinichi/Conan) or the escape that is death (Shiho/Ai), who has no current affiliation or loyalties, to ideals, government, or a criminal organization?

 

3 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I personally see that as a foreshadowing to when it would happen(post-Mystery-train), since she didn't seem as adjusted at that time(especially when she was aware that Vermouth was nearby). Considering that she never met Numabuchi before, I feel like that plays into it.

 

Now that she's ignoring her BO warning(that she could barely get since her fake death), what she was afraid of happening at that time is seemingly happening now(because Vermouth is definitely danger to her).

 

6BRsCvv.jpg

Certainly fits Gosho's dangling thread (of plot and character development) style. But again, even that case left so much unsaid—it's still pretty vague, with room for later follow-up. I'll be waiting for the first pages of 990 (or, if there's nothing there, the first file of the next case, and so on) for reference to her sense suddenly activating for the first time in 170 Files or so.

 

But even though she must've panicked in that moment, and when Rumi seemed to be blind in her right eye, she ultimately told Shinichi/Conan to stop talking about it in a manner defensive of Rumi. Whether Rumi is Vermouth or not, she may have thought that since Rumi still hadn't made a move against her, Rumi had no intention of making such a move against her.

 

3 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

As image above shows, she seemed to rely on that sense a lot, which makes me assume that it was very effective before she shrank. Now that she's away from the criminal life and is assumed dead, like she said in file 856, that probably played into the dissensitization. How she was able to sense anything from Rumi now is beyond me(looked like Gosho forced the opportunity to use Vermouth's BO-ness to mislead us into thinking Rumi is Rum). Maybe Rumi's grudge was simply that strong that it couldn't be bypassed?

Maybe Shiho's/Ai's sense is triggered by malevolent intent and something that happens only to those in the BO's ranks. If even lower ranked members can give off that particular scent (and we still don't know if only Shiho/Ai has this ability or not), then what is this process that marks them with this musk?

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27 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Well, if that's so, I'd have to dock her points for not being able to multitask, in this situation.

This is still her third appearance, so who knows... maybe we will see some sneaky attempts as we move on. Or maybe we will get new development in their relationship. For now, it looks like Gosho is focusing on making her look like Rum. Let's wait with the "should've" and "could've" questions.

 

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Certainly fits Gosho's dangling thread (of plot and character development) style. But again, even that case left so much unsaid—it's still pretty vague, with room for later follow-up. I'll be waiting for the first pages of 990 (or, if there's nothing there, the first file of the next case, and so on) for reference to her sense suddenly activating for the first time in 170 Files or so.

Me too, although I doubt it. If it's a Heiji case, then I'm hoping for more Momiji/Iori(although unlikely, since Gosho mentioned that she would appear close to her Anime debut). Btw, has there been a case where Haibara and Heiji has interacted and been involved together(excluding Shiragami case and desperate revival, since it was "through phone" / "Haibara in disguise")?

 

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But even though she must've panicked in that moment, and when Rumi seemed to be blind in her right eye, she ultimately told Shinichi/Conan to stop talking about it in a manner defensive of Rumi. Whether Rumi is Vermouth or not, she may have thought that since Rumi still hadn't made a move against her, Rumi had no intention of making such a move against her.

Maybe. She might've suspected her as Vermouth at the beginning, then she got confused when she noticed the "one-eye" behavior and thought of Rum. And then she noticed her genuine good side, which was the only thing that made sense(since the other notions conflicted with each other).

 

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Maybe Shiho's/Ai's sense is triggered by malevolent intent and something that happens only to those in the BO's ranks. If even lower ranked members can give off that particular scent (and we still don't know if only Shiho/Ai has this ability or not), then what is this process that marks them with this musk?

A very good question.

If Gosho were to give an official explanation to that(through manga or other means), it would mean a lot to me.

 

For now, the "met before" pattern is the only thing that makes sense to me.

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On 3/4/2017 at 2:23 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Still, she's dealing with a completely different opponent that she has never fought against before,... a teen in a child's body, who should be limited in every way, which makes it easier for her to underestimate his capabilities(yet he proved how well he could utilize his surroundings[Gadgets, allies etc.] to the point that he could be a "Silver Bullet").

 

I think it's a big stretch to jump that far ahead with the assumption that Rumi is completely beyond Conan level, based on a one-time deal where she hints him(while being on equal ground with him(since in File 966, she had a time advantage)). Subaru has shown to be on Conan's level, and even he has hinted to Conan before. Sure, we didn't see what gave Rumi the idea with the balancing toy, but that doesn't really tell us the level she is in comparison to Conan(considering that she really just hinted at one part of the trick).

 

I still don't think this is a matter of her getting smarter, but rather her revealing how smart she is. I still can't see her as inferior in any way during the Fullmoon showdown, just because Conan took her by surprise(due to her underestimation). Even a great genius can miscalculate and underestimate(especially when most of their data is controlled and limited[Since Conan made sure that she didn't know of his true awareness, and that she didn't find out about his secret counter-attack]).

 

There's no precedent that proves otherwise either. I can't take Pisco's knowledge of the SB research process as fact, since he wasn't a research-mate. In the end, I prefer not to overlook any possibilities(just because they don't have a precedent).

 

Actually, it's clearly shown in the manga too(File 351):

DhpqSjD.jpg

I'm saying that this flashback scene is most likely real(why else make it so elaborate for a lie), but the story about Chris disguising as this mystery man is fake(Sharon was most likely covering up her secret meeting with this man, and since there was rumors about her bad relationship with Chris, this "meeting with a man" story probably hit the news and Sharon covered it up with the "chris" lie). Point is, that's not necessarily the husband's real appearance(because he might be someone else), and there was a memorial/grave of her husband in the US.

 

I've got a look alike suspect for the husband, although Gosho may have alluded to the denial of the connection. Still the resemblance is uncanny..

 

As you can see, Eri Kisaki's father is similar in face structure and hair tune to the mysterious man. And in the same posture, but nothing can be proven and it is only a possibility though it is 25 chapter later.

2017-05-3--21-47-15.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

 

I've got a look alike suspect for the husband, although Gosho may have alluded to the denial of the connection. Still the resemblance is uncanny..

 

As you can see, Eri Kisaki's father is similar in face structure and hair tune to the mysterious man. And in the same posture, but nothing can be proven and it is only a possibility though it is 25 chapter later.

2017-05-3--21-47-15.jpeg

Hmm...

His hair seems different though. And the mystery man seems to have distinguishable cheekbones.

 

Interesting comparison nonetheless.

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31 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Hmm...

His hair seems different though. And the mystery man seems to have distinguishable cheekbones.

 

Interesting comparison nonetheless.

Though in the anime depiction only the clothes are similar..

2017-05-3--22-30-29.jpeg

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8 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Btw, has there been a case where Haibara and Heiji has interacted and been involved together(excluding Shiragami case and desperate revival, since it was "through phone" / "Haibara in disguise")?

I don't think so—I think she and Kogoro have directly interacted more than she and Heiji... and her involvement with Kogoro basically consists of that one case (925–927/822–823)... heck, I even think she's mentioned Kogoro more than Heiji... though she has Heiji's voice as her ringtone, last we checked (909–912/808–809). :D

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3 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

I don't think so—I think she and Kogoro have directly interacted more than she and Heiji... and her involvement with Kogoro basically consists of that one case (925–927/822–823)... heck, I even think she's mentioned Kogoro more than Heiji... though she has Heiji's voice as her ringtone, last we checked (909–912/808–809). :D

It's funny how the simplest type of interactions between some of our main characters hasn't happened yet.

Maybe next case could be their moment(although again, probably unlikely).

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12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

It's funny how the simplest type of interactions between some of our main characters hasn't happened yet.

Maybe next case could be their moment(although again, probably unlikely).

It'd be a better opportunity than most.

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All I can say is that I'm not sure if Wakasa Rumi is a good guy, after what happened when that guy was holding Yumi as a hostage, that look on Wakasa's face was creepy as hell and it looked like she really wanted to stab Yumi.

She's a mystery, really. o.o

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just a side note, Kuroda called Rumi "that person" (ano kata, and it was in bold too..).

I mean, its not a thing that Gosho would do but i guess there is like 0.5% chance that she is le boss...?

 

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42 minutes ago, Shryder said:

just a side note, Kuroda called Rumi "that person" (ano kata, and it was in bold too..).

I mean, its not a thing that Gosho would do but i guess there is like 0.5% chance that she is le boss...?

 

They just translated it into English like that so it would reflect that, in Japanese, Hyoue wasn't referring to a specific gender.

 

 

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How about this, in this Rum arc all the suspicious persons are from BO,

  • Kuroda: A watchdog of BO who had gotten into the accident in which Haibara's parents supposedly died?
  • Rumi : Haibara's mom, came down rushing to protect her little girl and shrunken relative from Rum?
  • Wakita: A BO spy sent to watch over Mouri Kogoro, but not Rum.

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1 hour ago, gg1998 said:
  • Kuroda: A watchdog of BO who had gotten into the accident in which Haibara's parents supposedly died?
  • Rumi : Haibara's mom, came down rushing to protect her little girl and shrunken relative from Rum?

 

They died 17-18 years ago. Hyoue wound up in a coma 10 years ago—7-8 years after they died.

 

If she's Rumi, then she's really not acting like "Hell's Angel." And how come she's that young, now? If she's wearing a disguise, did a disguise expert help her with it, and, if so, who?

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On 3/6/2017 at 2:56 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

It'd be a better opportunity than most.

I Wanna share this alternative theory to why Rumi is interested in the dying message, that makes sense to me.

 

Remember in Mystery Train, we got alluded to that the Itakura software had something to do with why Vermouth is hiding Conan's and Haibara's shrinking. Since the APTX shrinking effect was unknown when she was ordering the software, it would mean that the software has something to do with the previous research(since APTX research is based on it). That indirectly implies that she might've been hiding things connected to the SB research as well. If that were the case, then it makes a lot of sense that she was behind the Miyano accident(File 948 reminded and gave us more info regarding the accident, as if it will play a role in this arc). Why would she suddenly burn their laboratory? The likelihood that she found out that they made progress with their prototype is high. In order to cover it up, she burned their laboratory(along with them)(roughly 18 yrs ago). If that were the case, it could mean that some of the leftover drugs used for the assassination of Amanda & Kohji(17 yrs ago) might've had the effects that the parents discovered right before Vermouth covered it up.

 

This was just the setup, now on to Rum arc. Asaka is not Rum, following this speculation.

We find out that Rum drugged Amanda and Kohji. Now, the likelihood that he attacked Asaka as well is pretty high. Vermouth finds out that Rum used the very drugs she despises to kill off three people. However, Asaka's body disappeared. That would instantly worry her, since compared to the other BO members, she would have a hunch that maybe the newly discovered results took effect.

 

In the Betrayal series(File 954-957), she showed indications of being interested in the Asaca song.

The first was her unusual generosity to help Amuro with a disguise(she's being blackmailed, so why bother offer the blackmailer something he could force from you if he wanted to).

The second is her clearly rushing with a disguise to catch up to Bourbon and get involved, with a suspicious excuse(When did Bourbon show signs of unfaithfulness to their promise? And why rush as if they are in urgent danger?).

 

With all this in mind, let's focus on Rumi.

She uses the dying message as her "alias", meaning that her interest clearly lies in the Kohji case(and she wants to provoke Conan). She might be possessing a piece of the message itself, and she was gripping it with anger after being reminded of Rum.

Doesn't it make more sense with this possible angle in mind?

Vermouth's anger towards Rum is more so towards his actions with the drug, that created this mess with Asaka's disappearance. Her goal is to eliminate Asaka, the living evidence to the Miyano's prototype's progression, and is using her Rumi disguise to get Conan's attention(after confirming his knowledge of the case) and help on figuring out the message(if it could help her find Asaka), by acting as "Asaka" herself.

 

Subaru is still a part of her goal of course, hence why she wanted to invite the kids and then drop them off one by one.

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22 hours ago, Cocoa said:

Another re-post from DCTP! Sorry for interrupting the current discussion because of this.

 

I didn't really like Wakita just for the rather subjective reason that he would look kinda funny as the second-in-command of such an organization. But I tried to edit some panels with him on my own a few days ago (in a simple manner) after Tantei San made an edit of him in the DCTP Forums and this is the result:

 

un-wakita-ed.jpg

 

unwakitaed_explaining.jpg

 

Well, in case his more prominent features should be a kind of cheap disguise... he doesn't look all that funny anymore, I think. XD

 

P.S. On the other hand, his "fangirly mode" is still hilarious. XD
 

unwakitaed_fangirly.jpg

Nothing to apologise for :)

 

I think he's just a red-herring.

On the other hand, I agree with the theory(that friends in Discord server made) that Wakita drugged Mary. He most likely got the eye-injury from Mary's knife-hand strike during their struggle(struck at the same eye as Akai in the flashback), and since the Wakita setup case(Gin's suspicion, File 951-953) was a Mary case, it makes a lot of sense with Gosho's plot structure. Also, question that was asked in the chapter before Wakita's intro was "By whom was Mary drugged?"

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I'm trying to formally write my own interpretation of the "Motives/Goals" of these suspicious characters.

Wakita Kanenori:

The most suspicious and devious of the lot but it's not easy to figure out his game. In his introduction chapter he tried to become closer to Kogoro by asking him to make him(Wakita) his(Kogoro's) dsciple also he purposively lured out the Sleeping Kogoro by making a petty mistake and already has a idea about the main factor(Conan) behind the ruse of sleeping Kogoro. 

So it can be safely implied that Wakita is here to investigate sleeping Kogoro. Also it was a follow up event after Gin mentioning that "Kogoro got entangled in Soul detective's murder, so Gin wanted to make sure that whether Kogoro's involvement was just accidental or intentional. So that the next course of action can be decided accordingly. After that Wakita pops up, thus it would be clear that he's a BO operative going in to investigate Kogoro. Looks to be the most cunning and devious of the lot because Conan is yet to become suspicious of him.

009_1477528359.jpg

In this panel we can clearly see that Wakita is already on the verge of noticing Conan's antics.

Now comes the next one, my favourite too

Wakasa Rumi:

She seems to be a klutzy elementary school teacher but acts like a secret agent. Her name is eerily similar to the dying message of Kohji case. 

The way in which she is getting entangled in serious/heinous crimes is something also worth mentioning.

Let's start with her introductory chapter, she appears to be a klutzy school teacher but in the fight with the goons she had shown her mettle. But her behaviour is sporting various anomalies.

In her introductory chapter it was implied that someone had opened the trapdoor even before the detective boys were led inside by Rumi. The alive members of the robber gang only came after the news was published so they can be ruled out. Conan never entered the warehouse. The door wasn't that heavy, even Conan opened it with using a bit of force. So why the person who discovered the corpse didn't call the police instantaneously?

So here comes my conjecture, Rumi already opened the trapdoor and saw the corpse, then she led the DB into the house and acted as it that she discovered the corpse with them.But if Rumi's main intention was laying low and getting friendlier to the DB then this whole thing makes no sense. Because finding out a corpse in a school's warehouse is bound to become a sensation and Rumi would be all over the news as the only adult present in the time of the discovery.

Also Rumi was the one who led the group into the warehouse again and purposively gave out a hint to Conan, "Ebisu-Kao" and the cipher and the skeleton was trending online. So there was a chance that the robber group might be sneaking around and leading the DB directly into the house would mean an eventual confrontation and publicity for Rumi. But Rumi didn't care about it. She doesn't care if she's in the news.

Even in the Golfer murderer case, the way she made a scenario to invite the DB directly into her lair and the Cona finds the receipt. The person who has the intellectual capacity to drop hints for Conan is making such an avoidable mistake is very less likely.

So a conclusion can be that She's giving signals to Conan to figure out that she's something more than her appearance.

Now in the latest chapter it is proven beyond doubt that Rumi is someone with a great understanding of behavioural psychology as her "Conversation with the Sumito guy is 100% reverse psychological procedure." She recognized that Sumito is a control freak so she took away the the notion of control from him.

Now the way Rumi reacted by the mere mention of the word prosthetic showed that she has some personal vendetta against the word or the person with whom she associates the word Prosthetic.

The way in which Rumi actively glared to Kuroda was also unnatural. If Kuroda is just another person with whom Rumi had no previous connection then why such a glare was intended or it had something to do with Kuroda's appearance?

The way Rumi reacted ensured that Kuroda's suspicion that Rumi's something more than a school teacher.

Haibara never felt any pressure from Rumi before but when the word prosthetic triggered Rumi ,Haibara felt the pressure. It wasn't Rumi per say but her glare which unnerved Haibara or we know that someone was keeping an eye on the developments, maybe it was that someone's vision which unnerved Haibara?

Also the way Kuroda mentioned, "That person was never like this....." he was referring to someone whom he knows quite closely like a friend/accomplice/colleague. That person can't be Conan/DB or Agasa. There are two persons of interest, Haibara and Rumi. I can't negate Haibara because there are people alive in that universe who knew Haibara quite closely.

So who was his object of observation Rumi or Haibara? There is also a minor point in this regard Why Haibara felt a pressure when Rumi was glaring and grabbing her pocket but felt nothing when she was glaring at Kuroda?

When Haibara felt the pressure, she was standing with her back towards Rumi. Till now Haibara feels BO pressure by mere presence of the said members only one noteable exception is "Akemi planning the Bank robbery."

So when Haibara's blood relatives plan something malevolent she gets the sensation but the mere presence of BO members trigger her sensation.

That's why despite having the sensation Haibara says that she wouldn't be tolerating any shit-talk about Wakasa Rumi Sensei and she likes her. That's a very tall claim to make about someone who was giving off BO smell just sometime ago.

Rumi's actions during and her concern for Ayumi won't be enough under normal circumstances to wipe off Haibara's concerns. Because once she gets BO pressure from someone it takes time for her. So maybe it was something characteristically different. That's why she was able to make a tall claim.

So probably in my Opinion Rumi has come out to hunt down Rum and she's using her name and media to attract Rum's attention. She has a personal vendetta against Rum and Haibara trusts her and likes her and won't let her closest ally to badmouth her. Probably Haibara thinks the Rumi is her blood relative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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