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Chekhov MacGuffin

Suspicious characters! Discussion about Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, and others.

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On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I felt we needed a thread for discussion of suspicious and recurring arc characters like Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, Sakurako Yonehara and others so we have a place to talk about them outside of their intro chapters and the Rum thread. I figured there might be more continuous discussion if I lumped all the suspicious arc characters into one thread rather than give each one a separate thread. Secret spies? Enemies of the Organization? Hidden backstories? False identities? Awesome? Stupid? Please post theories and comments about these characters here!

 

well.. i think that new detective who appeared in chapter 975 is the most suspicious so far .. what was his name ??

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1 hour ago, nony elhussien said:

well.. i think that new detective who appeared in chapter 975 is the most suspicious so far .. what was his name ??

Wakita Kanenori...

 

On 10/13/2016 at 8:30 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Wakita Kanenori

 

Spoiler

 

I see two possibilites for Wakita's character...

 

There was so many similarites between his intro and Bourbon's, mainly because it's a restaurant setting involving a waitering detective. Beyond that however, I see one specific similarity, and that's the mention of alcoholic drinks. In Bourbon arc, it was mentioned that Amuro ordered Bourbon before, which was like Gosho's indication that this new character is Bourbon to us. Amuro also tried to deny that he is connected to spy-like behaviors, which again was Gosho's way of teasing us with the truth.

 

In the latest chapter with Wakita however, we get the indirect mention of Rum. The Red Thread noticed that the horse that won is called "Pirate's Spirit", which refers to a pirate's alcohol, which is Rum. The way Wakita said that Kogoro chose such a weak horse(Pirate's spirit=Rum) looks like an indication to me that Gosho is saying Wakita has some form of rivalry/antipathy with Rum, or sees Rum as someone beneath him. Along with the fact that someone with an artificial eye doesn't use an eye-patch, unless they are ashamed to show it(which in that case doesn't make sense that he would openly offer to show his "damaged eye"), it seems more likely that he isn't Rum. (and let's not forget his "out-there-characteristics").

 

Here are the two possibilities:

- Wakita is someone with a grudge against Rum(BO) who might be working with an agency, or is simply connected to one of Rum's victims.

- Wakita is a BO member who underestimates Rum and sees himself as a rival

 

I think the second option seems highly likely at the moment because of another possible hint from Gosho. The hint to him being a BO member could be Gosho's actual reference in this case to The Darkest Nightmare drawn cover art. Gosho most likely used the horse in the movie cover to make a reference in this chapter, which will potentially connect itself to the BO(the star of movie 20). Gosho might be implying that Wakita, who represents the "Darkest Nightmare" horse (that races with "Pirate's Spirit"(Rum)), will be another BO character that might be up to something that can be referred to as "the darkest nightmare"(like the movie), and I think that this might be related to Gin's suspicion on Kogoro. Wakita could be working with Gin to investigate Kogoro and see if he is worth eliminating, which could potentially endanger the Mouri(similar to the spies in the movie). Going back to Wakita's comment to Kogoro, maybe it's Gosho's way of saying that the boss chose Rum("Pirate's Spirit") over Wakita("Darkest Nightmare") as the second-in-command. In this case, maybe his code-name is a spirit that is from the "Dark spirit" category like "Brandy". Brandy is a distilled beverage that is classified as a hard liquor, which follows the pattern that all male members's have code-names that are hard liquors.

 

Remember that this is just speculation based on Gosho's implications, that are open for many interpretations.

 

 

 

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On 13.10.2016 at 8:30 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Gosho might be implying that Wakita, who represents the "Darkest Nightmare" horse (that races with "Pirate's Spirit"(Rum))

This is a little mistake. Darkest Nightmare and Pirate's Spirit have competed in different races and they both won theirs respectively. (Ofc this could have other implications if Gosho wants to tell us something with the two horse names)

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15 hours ago, Serinox said:

This is a little mistake. Darkest Nightmare and Pirate's Spirit have competed in different races and they both won theirs respectively. (Ofc this could have other implications if Gosho wants to tell us something with the two horse names)

Ahh, I see, thanks for the correction.

...it doesn't change much nonetheless...

This whole theory is just a stretch based on minor implications from one chapter. It's mostly wishful thinking, since I don't want another Amuro character who's willing to put a person into the hospital for his own ploy, when he is susposed to be a good guy. That car "accident", definitely doesn't sound like an accident, so I much rather see Wakita as a bad guy(BO) than a crazy agent/civilian.

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11 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I don't want another Amuro character who's willing to put a person into the hospital for his own ploy, when he is susposed to be a good guy.

 

That's Shinichi's/Conan's assumption. We'll never know—since she ended up in the hospital for a different reason—if he would've actually done it.

 

A better example to make your point is him standing in the middle of a crowd of civilians (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), disguised as a BO target, and deliberately trying to screw with the sniper (especially when that sniper is Chianti). That's a huge no-no for an NPA Officer/Agent—you can't endanger the public like that for a personal vendetta (especially when the only reason it happened is because you made it happen (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564)). 

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4 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

That's Shinichi's/Conan's assumption. We'll never know—since she ended up in the hospital for a different reason—if he would've actually done it.

 

A better example to make your point is him standing in the middle of a crowd of civilians (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), disguised as a BO target, and deliberately trying to screw with the sniper (especially when that sniper is Chianti). That's a huge no-no for an NPA Officer/Agent—you can't endanger the public like that for a personal vendetta (especially when the only reason it happened is because you made it happen (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564)). 

I was trying to correlate the writing similarity of Wakita's character, since it's almost indicated that Wakita might have put someone in the hospital as well in order to take the victim's place in the restaurant.

 

Either way, considering that Bourbon has a track-record of being willing to do questionable things(like physically assaulting someone he's planning to protect), I don't see why Conan's assumption could be wrong. It's not like everything was conveniently put in place for his plan to work after Natsuko's incident(that lead to Scarlet).

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18 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Bourbon has a track-record of being willing to do questionable things

 

I completely agree (as long, of course, as the condition, "when Shuichi is involved," is added).

 

18 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I was trying to correlate the writing similarity of Wakita's character, since it's almost indicated that Wakita might have put someone in the hospital as well in order to take the victim's place in the restaurant.

 

Completely agree—whether he's Rum or another BO codenamed member, that was no accident that put the one Kanenori replaced in the hospital.

 

18 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I don't see why Conan's assumption could be wrong.

 

Because he made it just after Rei/Toru told him, "You've got the wrong idea about me," and because this assumption of his was made before he and Shuichi were somehow able to use "Zero" to get ahold of Bourbon's real name. In other words, Shinichi/Conan wasn't thinking that he was dealing with a vengeful NPA Security Bureau Agent—when he made that assumption, he thought he was dealing with a BO agent who could expose the fake death plan.

 

Until Rei's/Toru's actions (i.e., risking civilians getting sniped) are discussed with him by Shinichi/Conan and or Shuichi (in, say, their next encounter, the follow up to A Song Called "Asaka" (File 954–File 957)), we won't know if he was really going to run over Natsuko Shibuya and risk killing her.

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6 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

I completely agree (as long, of course, as the condition, "when Shuichi is involved," is added).

Shuichi wasn't involved, until the last minute, when Rei was gonna "save" sherry by forcing her to go with him, through violence...

Also, although we can't know for sure, in his introduction, he should have already solved the case with the knowledge that he had, and since he was the one that dropped the cake that Banba stepped on, he should have already known that Banba was about to lose his only evidence to his alibi, yet he was willing to risk a civilian's innocence to test Kogoro's abilities...

That childhood flashback indicated that he was pretty aggressive as a child too..

 

Quote

Because he made it just after Rei/Toru told him, "You've got the wrong idea about me," and because this assumption of his was made before he and Shuichi were somehow able to use "Zero" to get ahold of Bourbon's real name. In other words, Shinichi/Conan wasn't thinking that he was dealing with a vengeful NPA Security Bureau Agent—when he made that assumption, he thought he was dealing with a BO agent who could expose the fake death plan.

Fair point. Ofc, it's still a possibility, since he couldn't have done something "nicer" to her while Vermouth is beside him. I don't see how Vermouth being disguised as Natsuko/Jodie could've helped either at that point...

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20 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Rei was gonna "save" sherry by forcing her to go with him, through violence...

 

It's not like he could just tell her, "Hey, I'm NPA Security Bureau!" After all, Vermouth had bugged the area near the rear so she'd know when to detonate the explosives at the right time, so the train wouldn't derail.

 

I'd say Shuichi/Subaru scaring her was more "huh?" worthy than Rei's/Toru's/Bourbon's actions (after all, it's "huh?" worthy to some that Gosho was keeping up with his trend of making sure that Shiho/Ai and Shuichi/Subaru can't really meet and talk).

 

20 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Also, although we can't know for sure, in his introduction, he should have already solved the case with the knowledge that he had, and since he was the one that dropped the cake that Banba stepped on, he should have already known that Banba was about to lose his only evidence to his alibi, yet he was willing to risk a civilian's innocence to test Kogoro's abilities...

 

Trouble is, we don't know if he was an instant away from beginning his deduction before Shinichi/Conan stepped in. As with Natsuko, the point is moot, because the choice was made for him before he could actually make the choice, himself.

 

20 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

That childhood flashback indicated that he was pretty aggressive as a child too..

 

It seems likely to me that Rei was sent to infiltrate the police for the BO, but Wataru Date and Scotch turned him into a police spy inside the BO. So, in spite of being on the side of the law, he'd still have some BO tendencies (like Shiho/Ai saying, "There's no point in sacrificing your life for the sake of people you don't even know").

 

Ultimately, he's nowhere near the level of Gin or Chianti, or even Vodka. As a NOC, there'll be times where he'll have to undertake questionable-at-best things, but, overall, he's still a better person than the real BO members, even the ones like Vermouth, Irish and Curaçao.

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2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

It seems likely to me that Rei was sent to infiltrate the police for the BO, but Wataru Date and Scotch turned him into a police spy inside the BO. So, in spite of being on the side of the law, he'd still have some BO tendencies (like Shiho/Ai saying, "There's no point in sacrificing your life for the sake of people you don't even know").

I'm honestly leaning more towards one of his parents being a research mate of the Miyanos. His main drive to take down the BO has got to be something more personal to him, and from the vague implications of his britishness, I'm seeing the possibility that we will eventually find out more about his parents(which in turn should serve a purpose in the plot). Also, that "Furuya Masa'aki" reading of the name in the guestbook gives me the Kouji vibe.

Both our guesses could be true as well, but I think that he got his british influence after moving to the UK, directly after the Miyano accident(his parent's death), and then eventually moved back and joined the police academy of his own free will.

 

2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Ultimately, he's nowhere near the level of Gin or Chianti, or even Vodka. As a NOC, there'll be times where he'll have to undertake questionable-at-best things, but, overall, he's still a better person than the real BO members, even the ones like Vermouth, Irish and Curaçao.

That goes without saying...

 

This whole topic started from the discussion regarding how far Rei was willing to go for his own ambition, even at the cost of abandoning his work ethics(for whatever reason), and of the absurdity that Gosho could potentially write himself another character with similar tendencies, who could also end up being on the good side too.

 

I can definitely see past Bourbon's level of "bad deeds" since it overall didn't lead to any casualties(and some of the potential "bad deeds" are questionable, like our discussion ascertained), but something as straightforward as orchestrating a car accident, that could potentially have lead to death(if that wasn't the aim to begin with), can't be excused to Bourbon's level. If Wakita was behind that incident, then I can't see him as something else besides a bad guy(BO).

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5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I'm honestly leaning more towards one of his parents being a research mate of the Miyanos. His main drive to take down the BO has got to be something more personal to him, and from the vague implications of his britishness, I'm seeing the possibility that we will eventually find out more about his parents(which in turn should serve a purpose in the plot). Also, that "Furuya Masa'aki" reading of the name in the guestbook gives me the Kouji vibe.

Both our guesses could be true as well, but I think that he got his british influence after moving to the UK, directly after the Miyano accident(his parent's death), and then eventually moved back and joined the police academy of his own free will.

 

Even so, the BO probably wanted him to infiltrate the police.

 

As for a possible British connection or not—I'm fine, either way.

 

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Rei was willing to go for his own ambition, even at the cost of abandoning his work ethics(for whatever reason)

 

You mean his vendetta against Shuichi over Scotch's death? Practically everything he did during his arc was related to Shuichi, and his grudge against him. That grudge is literally the only reason he walked in a crowd of civilians while being targeted by a sniper and (possibly/potentially) planned to run a civilian down.

 

Without that grudge, there'd be no Bank Heist Case (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564), no Silent Clash (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), no Scarlet Prologue (File 891–File 893/Episode 779–Episode 780), and no Scarlet Showdown (File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783). The Bourbon arc would pretty much become about Mystery Train and the Akai Family—even to the point that Rei/Toru/Bourbon wouldn't really be the focus and driver of the arc.

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Quote

You mean his vendetta against Shuichi over Scotch's death? Practically everything he did during his arc was related to Shuichi, and his grudge against him. That grudge is literally the only reason he walked in a crowd of civilians while being targeted by a sniper and (possibly/potentially) planned to run a civilian down.

I left that part open because I was considering the possibility of his BO influence as a child...

his motive is obviously his revenge against Akai, but what I thought we were discussing was the next layer under that, his personality and possible influences(in his childhood) that could explain his aggressive and cold-hearted decisions.

 

 

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12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I left that part open because I was considering the possibility of his BO influence as a child...

his personality and possible influences(in his childhood) that could explain his aggressive and cold-hearted decisions.

 

Probably a similar extent to Shiho/Ai, but the reason these decisions become prominent are due to his obvious motive—otherwise, he'd just be slightly more aggressive/cold-hearted than than your average NOC.

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After reading File 977, I'm seriously confused with Gosho’s implications...

 

The first impression I got was that Wakita is a BO member who looks down on Rum:

Wakita - "Pirate's Spirit is such a weak horse..."

 

And now, the second impression I'm getting is that Wakita is actually Rum:

Suspect - "Today is the episode where second-in-command of the boss appears"

 

I can't tell if it's all just random easter eggs, a red-herring, or if Wakita is actually Rum and he's very self-conscious and underestimates his abilities...  :/

 

Like Conan pointed out, the disciple-thingy is getting old. Are we gonna have a clash between Amuro and Wakita now? (Amuro has to uphold his disciple-act after all :P)

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On 10/27/2016 at 7:07 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

And now, the second impression I'm getting is that Wakita is actually Rum:

Suspect - "Today is the episode where second-in-command of the boss appears"

 

This screams trolling by Gosho. Seriously, "the second-in-command of the boss appears?" That's a sledgehammer to the face of even those who are unversed in DC mysteries. Between Kanenori and Hyoue, the red herring levels are off the charts.

 

Your first impression is more likely to be correct—Gosho typically finds a purpose for his red herring characters, so it's doubtful that Kanenori's just a wandering chef, and nothing else. He's, in all probability, not Rum, either (if he is, then we're retreading the Bourbon arc... people definitely won't be happy 'bout that). Thus, he's probably a BO member who has a relationship with Rum similar to Chianti's relationship with Vermouth.

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On 29/10/2016 at 0:27 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

This screams trolling by Gosho. Seriously, "the second-in-command of the boss appears?" That's a sledgehammer to the face of even those who are unversed in DC mysteries. Between Kanenori and Hyoue, the red herring levels are off the charts.

 

Your first impression is more likely to be correct—Gosho typically finds a purpose for his red herring characters, so it's doubtful that Kanenori's just a wandering chef, and nothing else. He's, in all probability, not Rum, either (if he is, then we're retreading the Bourbon arc... people definitely won't be happy 'bout that). Thus, he's probably a BO member who has a relationship with Rum similar to Chianti's relationship with Vermouth.

As much as I want to pass it off as a red-herring....I'm gonna stay neutral on this matter and simply say that he is a BO member(since we had enough indirect hints from Gosho that Wakita is most likely BO related), without completely dismissing the possibility that he could be Rum. I'm still obviously leaning more towards(and prefer) Wakita being a member with some antipathy between him and Rum...but it's really hard to say. Not that it's confirmed yet, but I still think that Rumi is a very obvious Asaka suspect too, and it does seem to me like she will end up being Asaka as well.

 

EDIT: Since the actual translation is "Close associate of the boss", rather than "second-in-command", Wakita could still be another BO member, who sees Rum as weak and that the boss still bets on him(according to the "Pirate's spirit" comment) and who is a close associate to the boss(according to the Yaiba comment), which is Gosho's way of creating a red-herring by playing with the truth rather than outright lie.

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Before anything else, Sorry for the double post(although the former post is old by now)...

 

So, I'll be doing a series of individual post for each Rum arc character and plot in which I go through everything worth noting about them and summarize my thoughts on it.

 

 

Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakita Kanenori

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita.png

 

Spoiler

Wakita Kanenori is the latest "obvious" Rum suspect that was introduced. Many are wondering about whether he could be Rum or not, so I'll be breaking down everything there's to get from his introduction up to this point.

 

 

Gosho's foreshadowing style

 

So, we all know about Gosho's pattern when it comes to introducing a new character in the story. Other than the normal form of foreshadowing, in which we get info that our main characters are eventually supposed to utilize to get to the truth, there's also the fourth-wall-breaking foreshadowing, in which the foreshadowing is meant for the fans to utilize, and not the in-universe characters. That style of foreshadowing is something that Gosho loves to do and has used it many times through out the series. Very clear and important examples are two characters from the Bourbon arc, Amuro and Mary.

 

In Amuro's introduction case(File 793-794), we had many instances where Gosho was intentionally hinting towards his identity. The first one was the reference to "Bourbon"(793), which ended up being his code-name in the Black organization.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25281%2529.p

 

The second one was Amuro's "spy" reference(794), in which he was denying of sharing their attributes, but ultimately ended up being one that infiltrated the Black organization.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25282%2529.p

 

In Mary's introduction case(File 876-878), we also had similar indications of Gosho foreshadowing a part of her identity, or at the very least, her former affiliation. In this one, he was fairly clever with it and hid it well, by splitting the foreshadowing into parts and delivering them in future cases. Although this isn't confirmed yet, both of these foreshadowings indicates that Mary is, or was, an MI6 agent. The first one is the "James Bond"(MI6 agent) reference(878), which is tied to Mary's stunt in File 952.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25283%2529.p

 

The second one is Mary's gadget experience and amazement by Agasa's work(878) which is tied to Amuro's "MI6" reference in File 895.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25284%2529.j

 

Similarly to their introduction case, Wakita's introduction case also had foreshadowings but with a variety of implications.

 

 

Wakita's identity

 

If we go through Wakita's introduction case(File 975-977), the first interesting hint we will find is the indirect reference to "Rum". You can see that Gosho was aiming on being less obvious with the "liquor-code-name" reference, compared to the Bourbon arc, as he chose to write "Pirate's Spirit"(which is known to be "Rum") instead(975). At first sight, this does seem to imply that Wakita is Rum, however, this does contradict one major characteristic that has been established in regards to Rum's character, and that is his artificial eye. At the moment, we haven't gotten a confirmation that Wakita does not have an artificial eye, but his behavior and circumstance seems to point to that he doesn't.

 

Wakita wears an eye-patch, which is claimed to be hiding his damaged eye. If he had gotten an artificial eye before ~4 months ago(when Sherry was still in the BO and had a chance to hear about Rum's artificial eye), and since he says "sticking to one place isn't my style", he wouldn't have been allowed to work in the kitchen in all those places he previously worked at(because having one eye while cooking is risky), yet he was still looking for that position, as if he normally did have that position in the previous places. This contradiction implies that the eye injury is likely recent, rather than old. Also, if he really did have an artificial eye and lied about it, then he definitely wouldn't have offered to show his fake eye, like he did(975).

 

There are also the other descriptions about Rum's "feminine" and "strong" characteristics that is yet to be seen in Wakita. Ultimately, there's a lack of similarities between Rum's characteristics and Wakita's, however, that "Pirate's Spirit" reference definitely ties his introduction to Rum and the Black Organization.

 

So who is Wakita then?

If we take a look at the context of the "Pirate's Spirit" mention, when it's referenced by Wakita himself(975), we can see an alternate interpretation of that foreshadowing. Wakita said "Pirate's Spirit is such a weak horse... yet you bet so much on it." 

If you look at this sentence as a foreshadowing to Wakita's position/opinion, in regards to Rum, then you can get this interpretation.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25284%2529.p

 

If Wakita is a BO member, then this sentence makes a lot of sense and basically foreshadows his antipathy with Rum, as well as his dissatisfaction with the boss favoring Rum.

 

The second foreshadowing references "the boss", and gives us implications of another layer to Wakita identity.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25285%2529.p

 

This is a very obvious red-herring of making Wakita look like Rum, but this still gives us a strong foreshadowing that Wakita, who was introduced in this case, is someone close to the boss. It's important to note that the translation says "closest", rather than "close". This implies that Wakita might be the closest subordinate to the boss, yet the boss chose Rum as the No. 2(second-in-command). This explains why there might be an antipathy/rivalry between him and Rum and his overall disagreement with the Boss' decision(according to the first foreshadowing).

 

 

Wakita's Goal

 

As we know, Wakita ended up being Kogoro's apprentice. If we assume that the foreshadowing-interpretation is correct, why would the closest subordinate to the BO boss become an apprentice to Kogoro?

The biggest clue we have is Gin's latest appearance(953), where he referred to Kogoro as a potential threat, after his involvement in the Hotta Gaito case(File 951-953).

 

Gin's suspicion of Kogoro has been developing since the start of the Kir arc. Because of Conan's mistakes, Kogoro became like the face of Conan's secret investigation of the BO, which Gin has slowly started to sniff out since the Vermouth arc(Itakura case). Even after being tricked into believing that the FBI used Kogoro to trick the BO, Gin still held on to his suspicion against Kogoro. The latest development with Gin's suspicion indicated that it was the last straw and that he finally decided to take actions. This could potentially be where Wakita comes into the picture.

 

If Gin is suspecting that Kogoro is investigating Kouji's case from 17 yrs ago, then it makes sense that he would get the assistance of the high-ranked members, as per the Boss' orders, since the case is connected to someone who's currently the second-in-command and it involves a well-known detective(compared to the Rokumichi case in File 954-957). The boss already knows of Kogoro's past-involvement with a BO member(Kir) and would value Gin's new suspicion of Kogoro. Therefore, it's not a stretch for the boss to activate his closest subordinate, Wakita, to verify Gin's suspicion and eliminate the potential threat.

 

This means that Wakita intended to get close to Kogoro, similarly to Bourbon, in order to investigate him. He didn't just "wash up" in Iroha Sushi Restaurant(as he claimed), but specifically targeted it, since it's next to the Mouri Detective Agency. The fact that Gosho addressed what had happened to the former employee indicates, in this scenario, that Wakita caused the traffic "accident" that got the employee hospitalized, in order to take his place.

 

 Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25286%2529.p

 

 

Wakita's Progress

 

Since Wakita is a fairly new character, we haven't gotten too much development of him since his introduction, but we did get something. In his latest appearance(File 980), we got a panel where we could see him read the latest news and say "This one's, quite quick-witted!". At first sight, what we assumed he was reading is the case with Rumi(in which the headlines made her out to be a hero), since the previous panel showed Kuroda's reaction to that news headline. However, because the panel never showed what Wakita was reading, it can be considered as one of Gosho's simple mislead-tactics, to make us think that Wakita found out about Rumi's existence(and her suspicious name).

 

Assuming that he wasn't reacting to Rumi, what was he reacting to instead?

I think that the main point to why Rumi's case(File 978-980) referenced "Ikyuu" so much and established similarities between Conan and Ikyuu was because of that last panel. Ikyuu was a monk that was known for his wit, and Conan was acting as Ikyuu at the start of the case. When Shinichi was a kid, he got the "Ikyuu" role because of his similar qualities to him. This does look like Gosho's way of foreshadowing that Wakita was calling Conan "quick-witted", since that is a direct reference to Ikyuu's known quality, which Conan represented.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25287%2529.p

 

This means that Wakita was reading about Conan, but since the "Rumi case" highlighted Rumi, it's more likely that he was reading an old newspaper about Conan's achievement(like the "Kid killer" news). This could be Gosho's setup to where Wakita eventually becomes the canon version of Irish, the BO member that finds out about Conan's identity.

 

 

Summary:

- Wakita could be the BO boss' closest subordinate and someone that has an antipathy/rivalry with Rum.

- His goal is to investigate Kogoro and verify if Gin's suspicion is true.

- He might be on to Conan right now.

 

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On 10/28/2016 at 7:17 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Since the actual translation is "Close associate of the boss", rather than "second-in-command", Wakita could still be another BO member, who sees Rum as weak and that the boss still bets on him(according to the "Pirate's spirit" comment) and who is a close associate to the boss(according to the Yaiba comment), which is Gosho's way of creating a red-herring by playing with the truth rather than outright lie.

 

Yeah, it isn't Gosho's style to straight up lie to our faces—he, rather, tries to utilize techniques like misdirection.

 

46 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Before anything else, Sorry for the double post(although the former post is old by now)...

 

So, I'll be doing a series of individual post for each Rum arc character and plot in which I go through everything worth noting about them and summarize my thoughts on it.

 

Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakita Kanenori

 

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  Reveal hidden contents

Wakita Kanenori is the latest "obvious" Rum suspect that was introduced. Many are wondering about whether he could be Rum or not, so I'll be breaking down everything there's to get from his introduction up to this point.

 

 

Gosho's foreshadowing style

 

So, we all know about Gosho's pattern when it comes to introducing a new character in the story. Other than the normal form of foreshadowing, in which we get info that our main characters are eventually supposed to utilize to get to the truth, there's also the fourth-wall-breaking foreshadowing, in which the foreshadowing is meant for the fans to utilize, and not the in-universe characters. That style of foreshadowing is something that Gosho loves to do and has used it many times through out the series. Very clear and important examples are two characters from the Bourbon arc, Amuro and Mary.

 

In Amuro's introduction case(File 793-794), we had many instances where Gosho was intentionally hinting towards his identity. The first one was the reference to "Bourbon"(793), which ended up being his code-name in the Black organization.

 

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The second one was Amuro's "spy" reference(794), in which he was denying of sharing their attributes, but ultimately ended up being one that infiltrated the Black organization.

 

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In Mary's introduction case(File 876-878), we also had similar indications of Gosho foreshadowing a part of her identity, or at the very least, her former affiliation. In this one, he was fairly clever with it and hid it well, by splitting the foreshadowing into parts and delivering them in future cases. Although this isn't confirmed yet, both of these foreshadowings indicates that Mary is, or was, an MI6 agent. The first one is the "James Bond"(MI6 agent) reference(878), which is tied to Mary's stunt in File 952.

 

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The second one is Mary's gadget experience and amazement by Agasa's work(878) which is tied to Amuro's "MI6" reference in File 895.

 

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Similarly to their introduction case, Wakita's introduction case also had foreshadowings but with a variety of implications.

 

 

Wakita's identity

 

If we go through Wakita's introduction case(File 975-977), the first interesting hint we will find is the indirect reference to "Rum". You can see that Gosho was aiming on being less obvious with the "liquor-code-name" reference, compared to the Bourbon arc, as he chose to write "Pirate's Spirit"(which is known to be "Rum") instead(975). At first sight, this does seem to imply that Wakita is Rum, however, this does contradict one major characteristic that has been established in regards to Rum's character, and that is his artificial eye. At the moment, we haven't gotten a confirmation that Wakita does not have an artificial eye, but his behavior and circumstance seems to point to that he doesn't.

 

Wakita wears an eye-patch, which is claimed to be hiding his damaged eye. If he had gotten an artificial eye before ~4 months ago(when Sherry was still in the BO and had a chance to hear about Rum's artificial eye), and since he says "sticking to one place isn't my style", he wouldn't have been allowed to work in the kitchen in all those places he previously worked at(because having one eye while cooking is risky), yet he was still looking for that position, as if he normally did have that position in the previous places. This contradiction implies that the eye injury is likely recent, rather than old. Also, if he really did have an artificial eye and lied about it, then he definitely wouldn't have offered to show his fake eye, like he did(975).

 

There are also the other descriptions about Rum's "feminine" and "strong" characteristics that is yet to be seen in Wakita. Ultimately, there's a lack of similarities between Rum's characteristics and Wakita's, however, that "Pirate's Spirit" reference definitely ties his introduction to Rum and the Black Organization.

 

So who is Wakita then?

If we take a look at the context of the "Pirate's Spirit" mention, when it's referenced by Wakita himself(975), we can see an alternate interpretation of that foreshadowing. Wakita said "Pirate's Spirit is such a weak horse... yet you bet so much on it." 

If you look at this sentence as a foreshadowing to Wakita's position/opinion, in regards to Rum, then you can get this interpretation.

 

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If Wakita is a BO member, then this sentence makes a lot of sense and basically foreshadows his antipathy with Rum, as well as his dissatisfaction with the boss favoring Rum.

 

The second foreshadowing references "the boss", and gives us implications of another layer to Wakita identity.

 

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This is a very obvious red-herring of making Wakita look like Rum, but this still gives us a strong foreshadowing that Wakita, who was introduced in this case, is someone close to the boss. It's important to note that the translation says "closest", rather than "close". This implies that Wakita might be the closest subordinate to the boss, yet the boss chose Rum as the No. 2(second-in-command). This explains why there might be an antipathy/rivalry between him and Rum and his overall disagreement with the Boss' decision(according to the first foreshadowing).

 

 

Wakita's Goal

 

As we know, Wakita ended up being Kogoro's apprentice. If we assume that the foreshadowing-interpretation is correct, why would the closest subordinate to the BO boss become an apprentice to Kogoro?

The biggest clue we have is Gin's latest appearance(953), where he referred to Kogoro as a potential threat, after his involvement in the Hotta Gaito case(File 951-953).

 

Gin's suspicion of Kogoro has been developing since the start of the Kir arc. Because of Conan's mistakes, Kogoro became like the face of Conan's secret investigation of the BO, which Gin has slowly started to sniff out since the Vermouth arc(Itakura case). Even after being tricked into believing that the FBI used Kogoro to trick the BO, Gin still held on to his suspicion against Kogoro. The latest development with Gin's suspicion indicated that it was the last straw and that he finally decided to take actions. This could potentially be where Wakita comes into the picture.

 

If Gin is suspecting that Kogoro is investigating Kouji's case from 17 yrs ago, then it makes sense that he would get the assistance of the high-ranked members, as per the Boss' orders, since the case is connected to someone who's currently the second-in-command and it involves a well-known detective(compared to the Rokumichi case in File 954-957). The boss already knows of Kogoro's past-involvement with a BO member(Kir) and would value Gin's new suspicion of Kogoro. Therefore, it's not a stretch for the boss to activate his closest subordinate, Wakita, to verify Gin's suspicion and eliminate the potential threat.

 

This means that Wakita intended to get close to Kogoro, similarly to Bourbon, in order to investigate him. He didn't just "wash up" in Iroha Sushi Restaurant(as he claimed), but specifically targeted it, since it's next to the Mouri Detective Agency. The fact that Gosho addressed what had happened to the former employee indicates, in this scenario, that Wakita caused the traffic "accident" that got the employee hospitalized, in order to take his place.

 

 Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25286%2529.p

 

 

Wakita's Progress

 

Since Wakita is a fairly new character, we haven't gotten too much development of him since his introduction, but we did get something. In his latest appearance(File 980), we got a panel where we could see him read the latest news and say "This one's, quite quick-witted!". At first sight, what we assumed he was reading is the case with Rumi(in which the headlines made her out to be a hero), since the previous panel showed Kuroda's reaction to that news headline. However, because the panel never showed what Wakita was reading, it can be considered as one of Gosho's simple mislead-tactics, to make us think that Wakita found out about Rumi's existence(and her suspicious name).

 

Assuming that he wasn't reacting to Rumi, what was he reacting to instead?

I think that the main point to why Rumi's case(File 978-980) referenced "Ikyuu" so much and established similarities between Conan and Ikyuu was because of that last panel. Ikyuu was a monk that was known for his wit, and Conan was acting as Ikyuu at the start of the case. When Shinichi was a kid, he got the "Ikyuu" role because of his similar qualities to him. This does look like Gosho's way of foreshadowing that Wakita was calling Conan "quick-witted", since that is a direct reference to Ikyuu's known quality, which Conan represented.

 

This means that Wakita was reading about Conan, but since the "Rumi case" highlighted Rumi, it's more likely that he was reading an old newspaper about Conan's achievement(like the "Kid killer" news). This could be Gosho's setup to where Wakita eventually becomes the canon version of Irish, the BO member that finds out about Conan's identity.

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita+%25287%2529.p

 

Summary:

- Wakita could be the BO boss' closest subordinate and someone that has an antipathy/rivalry with Rum.

- His goal is to investigate Kogoro and verify if Gin's suspicion is true.

- He might be on to Conan right now.

 

 

Totally agree.

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Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakasa Rumi 

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Spoiler

Wakasa Rumi is the latest "Asaka" suspect that was introduced awhile ago. The biggest discussion, in regards to Asaka, is whether he/she is Rum, but I'll only briefly touch upon that, since I'll mostly focus on Rumi's character and her goal in the story.

As I addressed in my Wakita discussion, Gosho loves to foreshadow a new character's identity by giving out clues about their identity in their introduction case. In Wakasa Rumi's introduction case, there was a handful of implications that suggested different things, but one of those things is that she might be Asaka, the prime suspect in Haneda Kouji's 17-year-old case.


The "Asaka" contradictions

There was an important contradicting matter that was established about Asaka. The first thing we found out was in File 951, in which Conan concluded that Asaka is Rum, based on the fact that Kouji's dying message("U MASCARA") could spell out both "ASACA"(where "CA" is pronounced as "KA") and "RUM"(File 950).

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Since Gosho follows a liquor-code-naming pattern for the BO members(where females have a "wine-based" liquor name while men have a "distilled liquor" name), it would imply that Rum, which is a hard-liquor, is male. Also, the three main descriptions of Rum where about males. However, the second information we got about Asaka was in File 953, in which Hotta Gaito had gotten the information that Asaka was seen with a hand-mirror, commonly used by women, and therefore came to the conclusion that Asaka was female.

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This contradiction looks like Gosho's way of making both gender outcomes of Rum equally possible, however it's far more likely that Rum ends up being a man(unless Gosho is planning on going against his pattern). Gosho always uses Conan as a way to allude to the truth, like when he makes Conan think about the crucial components in a case, or when he follows up the first assumption by mentioning, or thinking about, another possibility(which ends up being the truth). However, Conan also has his fair share of moments where which he concludes with the wrong answer, because he didn't have enough clues. The most prominent, and plot-related, example is his assumption during Kir arc, where he concluded that Hidemi is not Rena and that Rena underwent plastic surgery(File 587).

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Just like with Conan's "Asaca=Rum" assumption, it looks like Conan took the "Asaka is a woman" assumption seriously too, both which are very similar to the Rena example(although there was more evidence backing up the Rena one). "Asaca Rum" interpretation lacks context and there's nothing that indicates that the prime suspect Asaka is the culprit/Rum, other than his/her disappearance(which can easily be explained in stories overall). Asaka being a woman, just because he/she was seen with a hand-mirror, is also a very weak assumption. Since both of these are very rushed and contradicting assumptions, I'll disregard them as "actual clues" on my following speculations.


Rumi's appearances

Going back to Rumi, the first suspicious thing we get in her introduction as a deputy homeroom teacher for class 1-B(File 966) is her name "Wakasa Rumi", which clearly looks like the interpretation that everyone has about Kouji's dying message, "ASACA RUM"(except "S" & "C's" place are switched and "W" & "I" are added). This is obviously not a coincidence, and it looks like it's a fake name that she created with the intention to provoke someone that is, or might be, aware of the dying message. The next suspicious part is Rumi unnecessarily mentioning the age gap between her and Kobayashi.

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This awfully looked like an effort to make her potential involvement in the Kouji case more clearer, since it's a 17-year-old case and she would have been 20 during that time(because she's 37). It was probably Gosho's way of making her look like Asaka, who he lately "established" to be a woman(File 953), and before that, Rum(File 951). However, if we look at it from Rumi's perspective, it could be her way of trying to make someone in the room aware of her fitting age to be involved in that case.

During the rest of Rumi's introduction case(File 966-968), she was intentionally acting clumsy to give out hints in order to help Conan out with his investigation. The fact that she could give out hints indicates that she was intelligent enough to figure out the case beforehand. The reason she was able to get far in the case was because she already visited the basement in the warehouse(where the case started) before bringing the kids with her, and had time to figure things out. That's why Conan found traces of someone having been there before(966).

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This tells us that Rumi is definitely smarter than what she acts like, and the conclusion of that case revealed her true colours, where she took down three robbers with a grin(968). The panel at the end implied that Conan was her goal all along, meaning that all the suspicious things about her was intended for Conan.

What we could conclude from the introduction case is that Rumi is someone that wants Conan to think that she was involved in the Kouji case, and that she helped him find a case to solve.

Rumi's next appearance was in File 978. After realizing that a case might take place in her condominium, she acted clumsy and created a scenario that forced her to go home. this time, it was more clearer that she was only aiming to bring Conan with her, since she tried to create an excuse where she needed him to go home with her. When the detective boys insisted on going too, she mentioned to Kobayashi that she was gonna drop them off one by one.

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The fact that Gosho addressed such an obvious matter, made it seem like Rumi's primary goal was to do something while/after she drops them off one by one. The fact that Conan later realized from a receipt that she had bought extra cups, glasses and plates, before bringing them to her home, indicates that she was ready to cook food for a group, and by extension, dropping them off later on.

By the end of that case(File 980), Rumi is caught off guard by reporters, and against her will, her name "Wakasa Rumi" got revealed to them, which lead to her name stealing the headlines of the news. The fact that she wasn't willing to give out her name implies that she's aware of the consequences of it being out in the open, meaning that she's aware of an outside threat(Kouji's murderer/Rum/BO) that would attempt to bury anything connected to "Kouji's dying message".

What we can conclude from the second case is that she once again helped Conan find a case to solve, but also that she was probably aiming to do something while dropping the kids off. She also seems to be aware of the consequences of revealing her name to the public.


Rumi's identity - Asaka

Since Rumi's behavior suggests that she's interested in the Kouji case, and since she's been hinting to Conan that she was involved in it, it could mean that she's trying to convey that she's Asaka, the only person in the Kouji website(where Conan got his info from) that disappeared from that case. Rumi is skilled at taking down her opponents, which fits with Asaka's profile, since he/she is a bodyguard. The website had shared a photo of Asaka, and although the gender is ambiguous, it definitely matches with Rumi's hair and figure.

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If that is the case, would it mean that Rumi/Asaka is Rum, the culprit in the Kouji case?
There are many implications that tells us that Asaka is not Rum, if Rumi is Asaka. The first implication is Rum's artificial eye. Rumi has shown signs of having two working eyes(based on the fact that she has turned her head both sides to look back, without turning her whole body). The second implication is the fact that she's a woman, when majority of the hints(including Gosho's pattern), indicates that Rum is male.

The third implication is through one of Gosho's favorite foreshadowing styles. As I've addressed in my Wakita discussion, Gosho uses a style of foreshadowing that involves giving out hints that is directed to the fans, rather than the in-universe characters. During Rumi's introduction case, there was a very clear hint that dismissed her as an enemy. It was Genta's Yaiba reference(which is identical to the yaiba reference in Wakita's case) in File 968.

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Yaiba is the hero in the Kamen Yaiba show, so the fact that this foreshadowed Rumi, who was just introduced, to be a "mysterious female-yaiba" indicates that she's a female hero, who is clearly mysterious. The fact she has been helping Conan find cases, as well as helping him solve it indirectly, further implies that she's supposed to be portrayed as a hero. This does seem to imply that she's not a threat, and therefore is not Rum, the BO's second-in-command.

If Rumi is Asaka, why is she trying to make Conan realize that and how does she know that he's intelligent?
One way she could have known about it is if she had read the news about Hotta Gaito's case, and realized that Kogoro got involved in it, similarly to Gin(File 951-953). For Kogoro to get involved, something about Hotta Gaito must have caught his attention, and since soul detective Hotta was teasing that he was gonna revive the Kouji case, there was a glimmer of chance that Kogoro was interested in it. So from then on, Rumi might've done her research on Kogoro's history and arrived at Conan's feats in the "Kid killer" news. The fact that Gosho went the extra mile to remind us of Conan's fame in File 951 makes it more likely that it played a role in Rumi's investigation(including Wakita's, as addressed in my previous discussion).

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With Rumi's portrayed intelligence, it wouldn't be surprising for her to figure out that Conan is the brains behind "sleeping Kogoro", and by extension, the one that could have been interested in the Kouji case.
Another way Rumi could've figured out Conan's true intelligence(which also could have contributed to the first way) is if she is the one who posted info on Kouji's case in that website(File 948). If she's Asaka, then she is among the few people who had a chance to take photos during that incident. Conan had the impression that the one who posted the info wants people to help them solve the case(948).

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This would make sense if it was Rumi/Asaka, who is not the culprit(Rum) in that case, and wants to clear her name, hence why she's asking for help. So, if Rumi was behind the website, then it wouldn't be a stretch if she was able to trace the people that visited the website, and that it eventually lead her to Conan.

In other words, when Rumi found out about Conan's interest in the Kouji case, as well as his intelligence, she decided to slowly approach him in his school and hint to him that she's Asaka and needs help. Meanwhile, she has been bringing cases to him, indirectly, to test his capabilities. This would mean that when she said she was gonna drop the kids off one by one(File 978), she was planning on confronting Conan while they were both alone and on their way to the detective agency. Since the website about Kouji keeps going down, it wouldn't be odd for Asaka to think that the real culprit is still out there and is trying to suppress information about that case, hence why she's aware of the consequences of revealing her name to the public.


Gosho's introduction foreshadowing

Whenever Gosho is about to introduce a character or a plot development, he always likes to foreshadow it in someway. There are many examples to choose from but I'll only reference three.

First one is the development where Heiji figures out Conan's identity(File 117-121), and where a fortuneteller predicted that.

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Second one is the introduction of Sera, who clearly is in love with Shinichi(File 768-770), and where Sonoko mentions that a love rival might appear.

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Third one is a recent development, when Conan was trying to remember who Mary looked like, until Haibara suddenly got in his face(with eye-bags similar to Mary's) and interrupted his thoughts(File 939-941), and it later ended up being Haibara.

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Similarly to these examples, there was a very interesting conversation that took place right before Rumi's introduction that could be a foreshadowing to a completely different outcome for Rumi's character.


Rumi's identity - Vermouth

Right before Kobayashi introduced Rumi to the class(File 966), the detective boys where talking about Kaito kid(who recently disguised as Agasa) and was hoping he would disguise as them.

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Now obviously, there's no way Rumi is Kid(since his purpose is not main-plot related), but there's only one person who's at least as good in disguises as Kid, and who has a reason to get close to the kids, and that's Vermouth.

There are countless of similarities between Rumi and Vermouth. Rumi has portrayed an excellent level of acting, as she's trying to uphold her "clumsy" persona. Vermouth is an American star actress. Rumi seems to be physically trained, which is very similar to Vermouth, who has acrobatic skills. Vermouth is a very intelligent character too, although we haven't seen her portray the same level of deduction as Rumi(which can be blamed on Vermouth having few appearances overall).

What also fits with Vermouth is the yaiba reference(File 968), about a "mysterious female-yaiba". Vermouth is among the most mysterious character in the whole Detective Conan series, and she has been portrayed to be an anti-hero/anti-villain. Because of her special attachment to the protagonist, she has secretly been helping him out of harms way through out the story, just like how Rumi has been helping him through out her intro case. Since Vermouth knows about Conan's true identity, Rumi would obviously be aware of Conan's intelligence, if she was Vermouth-in-disguise.

There's also one other aspect of Rumi's personality that is awfully identical to Vermouth's. In Rumi's second appearance(File 978), she overheard a couple's quarrel, and ended up hearing the guy plotting to kill his girlfriend. Rather than warning the girlfriend(who is leaving right after the quarrel), she smiled and ultimately let it happen.

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This is a unique and very "evil-like" trait for a "Yaiba-like" character to have. This very complexity defines Vermouth, since she is a gray character who has shown very ruthless and kind sides.

If Rumi is Vermouth, why didn't Haibara sense her presence?
Haibara has always feared Vermouth, and since she has this unique ability to, almost literally, sniff out members of the BO, she was particularly good at picking up her presence(whether she was aware of it being her or not). This question can be answered with something that Gosho presented regarding Haibara's sensing abilities in the Bourbon arc.
During the Cherry-blossom-viewing case(File 850-852), Vermouth was disguised as a pregnant lady, but Haibara didn't feel/smell her presence. When Conan asked Haibara about it, she said that she didn't feel it because she didn't expect it to be possible that the BO would approach her now that she's considered dead(File 856).

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This does seem to infer that her sensing abilities are mentally driven. Since she has let her guard down completely, ever since the fake death, and stopped fearing for her life, it looks like it has affected her ability, so there shouldn't be a reason for her to sense BO's presence in Rumi(Vermouth), or Rum for that matter, if she couldn't sense it back then.

If Rumi is Vermouth, it would mean that she is suspicious of Conan's knowledge regarding the Kouji case, for the same reason that Gin is suspicious of Kogoro's(as addressed in my Wakita discussion), because he was involved in Hotta Gaito's case(File 951-953). For that reason, she might've been trying to provoke Conan, by making herself look like the prime suspect of that case, Asaka, in order to confirm her suspicion. Vermouth has gone through crazy stunts and disguises in the past, just to investigate something, assassinate someone or simply confirm her suspicions.

One question remains,... what was her goal when she invited the kids, just so that she could drop them off one by one?(978)
Going to that length, just so Conan could solve a case, wouldn't be unheard of, however, since Gosho addressed what her plans was after inviting them, it leaves room for an actual purpose to her plans. Our biggest clue lies in her latest appearance, the Betrayal series(File 954-957).

During that case, Vermouth was disguised as Azusa, and there was one thing that bothered her through out that case, Okiya Subaru's identity. When she asked Bourbon about him, she got important keywords to go with, right after Bourbon told her about his name and occupation(File 955):
"He lives next to the house of someone named professor Agasa".
After that, Vermouth picked up on Bourbon's "dagger-stares" at Subaru, which made him look even more suspicious.

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This would immediately explain why Rumi was planning on doing something while dropping the kids off one by one. Her goal was most likely to create an inconspicuous excuse to pry on Agasa's neighbor, Okiya Subaru, while she drops off Haibara at the professor's house, or to get information through the other naive kids, after dropping off Conan and Haibara. She was also showing interest in Agasa's gadgets in File 966. 

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This could have been Rumi's attempt to lead the kids on so that they would want to introduce Agasa to her, which in turn would speed up her investigation on Subaru, his neighbor. It's also possible that the "whisky" reference in File 967 was one of Gosho's foreshadowings/hints(directed to the fans) that Rumi's goal is someone with a "Whisky" code-name.

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The "Whisky-code-named" agents that are relevant in this arc are three people: Bourbon, Scotch & Rye. Bourbon is Vermouth's current partner, and Scotch is dead. That leaves us with the former member of the BO, Rye, who is Okiya Subaru. This could ultimately mean that Subaru was her primary goal, while "Conan's Kouji investigation" was secondary. The reason to why she avoided mentioning her name to the reporters(980) is because if the BO saw her name in the news and wanted to take action(since her name looks like the dying message), Vermouth would be forced to give them the heads-up and create an excuse to why she disguised herself as Rumi(in order to avoid endangering Conan), which would ultimately ruin her plan to investigate Subaru.


Summary:
- Rumi wants Conan to think that she was involved in the Kouji case, and she is aware of an outside threat that wants to bury it.
- Rumi could be the bodyguard Asaka, but that means that Asaka is not the culprit/Rum. She has been testing Conan and wants his help in order to solve Kouji's case and clear her name.
- Rumi could be Vermouth, who is acting as if she is "Asaka" in order to provoke Conan and confirm her suspicion that he's investigating Kouji's case. Her primary goal is to investigate Okiya Subaru.

 

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9 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:
 

-Rumi could be Vermouth, who is acting as if she is "Asaka" in order to provoke Conan and confirm her suspicion that he's investigating Kouji's case. Her primary goal is to investigate Okiya Subaru.

 

 

If Rumi is Vermouth, then who's uploading the info about the case?... and who, then, is Asaka, if Rumi's not?

About her investigating Shuichi/Subaru—if her mentioning whiskey is a reference to him, then does she suspect that Subaru Okiya is actually Rye? Is she going to find out, and what is she going to do with that info if she does? Get Hidemi/Rena/Kir executed?

Then there's her actually showing up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957), at all—if she's really smart enough to be hinting Shinichi/Conan as Rumi, then surely she's smart enough to realize that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC (or, at least, suspect him to be one to the degree that Shuichi did, when he was in the Organization as Dai/Rye). Therefore, she wouldn't show up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" because she'd know that he was a NOC, and, therefore, wouldn't hurt Ran and Shinichi/Conan.

Even though Shinichi/Conan wouldn't be her primary objective, if she's Rumi, what would she do if she finds out he is looking into that case?

Don't get me wrong, your theory on how Rumi could be Vermouth is interesting... but it's not my first choice as to who Rumi is. I will keep it in mind, though.

 

On the other hand, I completely agree with your Asaka = Rumi ≠ Rum theory. I'll bet on that one turning out to be the correct theory.

 

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On 23/01/2017 at 0:27 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

If Rumi is Vermouth, then who's uploading the info about the case?... and who, then, is Asaka, if Rumi's not?


About her investigating Shuichi/Subaru—if her mentioning whiskey is a reference to him, then does she suspect that Subaru Okiya is actually Rye? Is she going to find out, and what is she going to do with that info if she does? Get Hidemi/Rena/Kir executed?

Then there's her actually showing up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957), at all—if she's really smart enough to be hinting Shinichi/Conan as Rumi, then surely she's smart enough to realize that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC (or, at least, suspect him to be one to the degree that Shuichi did, when he was in the Organization as Dai/Rye). Therefore, she wouldn't show up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" because she'd know that he was a NOC, and, therefore, wouldn't hurt Ran and Shinichi/Conan.


Even though Shinichi/Conan wouldn't be her primary objective, if she's Rumi, what would she do if she finds out he is looking into that case?

Don't get me wrong, your theory on how Rumi could be Vermouth is interesting... but it's not my first choice as to who Rumi is. I will keep it in mind, though.

 

If Rumi is Vermouth, then Asaka would obviously be someone else. Who Asaka is would be a topic for later, since Rumi hasn't even been dismissed yet, but we could still get more suspects(not that it's likely), and Rum has obviously not been dismissed yet either.

 

If it's Gosho's hint to us fans that "Whisky"/Rye is her objective, then she is most likely suspecting him to be Rye, since she's aware of Bourbon's hate for Rye, and he showed anger while staring at Subaru, which I would assume is rare to Vermouth(since he always acts arrogant and confident around her). What she does after is heavily influenced on how risky it would be for Conan.

 

There's really no correlation between how clever Vermouth is at hinting to Conan and how good Rei plays his Bourbon role. They're two independent variables. Scotch most likely factored into why Akai got suspicious of Bourbon, since Scotch's death affected Bourbon's behavior towards Akai way more than he anticipated(which ended up making his tie to the dead spy more suspicious).

 

Depends on what consequences she is worried about. She obviously doesn't want him to keep digging to the point that the BO notices, like they "did" with Kogoro.

 

Happy to know that, but as you can see, I'm torn about this. The simpler way to put this is:

- if Asaka is Rum, Rumi is Vermouth.

- If Asaka is a woman, Rumi is Asaka.

But this thinking-style doesn’t satisfy me either, since Asaka could still be someone Rumi-equivalent(or a man), while Rumi is Vermouth. So until Rumi meets Ran or visits the professor, I'm gonna stand comfortably in the middle and equally weigh both options.

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On 1/22/2017 at 7:19 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

If it's Gosho's hint to us fans that "Whisky"/Rye is her objective, then she is most likely suspecting him to be Rye, since she's aware of Bourbon's hate for Rye, and he showed anger while staring at Subaru, which I would assume is rare to Vermouth(since he always acts arrogant and confident around her). What she does after is heavily influenced on how risky it would be for Conan.

I think she'd probably focus on getting Hidemi/Rena/Kir exposed and killed—especially considering she already suspected her of being a NOC—after all, the reason Shuichi faked his death was so that she could keep her cover. If she dies, then their plan goes up in smoke (that is, unless she would be able to get out big info to them before she died). No need to bring the BO spotlight on Subaru Okiya, and risk those involved with him being caught in the crossfire.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 7:19 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

There's really no correlation between how clever Vermouth is at hinting to Conan and how good Rei plays his Bourbon role. They're two independent variables. Scotch most likely factored into why Akai got suspicious of Bourbon, since Scotch's death affected Bourbon's behavior towards Akai way more than he anticipated (which ended up making his tie to the dead spy more suspicious).

But this is Vermouth we're talking about, here. Rei/Toru/Bourbon would have to be on her level, as an actor, to fool her completely, considering that they're frequent partners—and even then, just one slip up could prove very problematic.

 

If she's Rumi—and her deductive prowess is good enough to be able to hint Shinichi/Conan, of all people—her odds of realizing Bourbon's a NOC are higher, especially in tandem with her acting experience. I think her impromptu appearance during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957) decreased the odds that she currently knows that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC. Therefore, I think the odds of contradiction would be lower if Vermouth is not Rumi—it's more likely to me that she's not Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC, than she is Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 7:19 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Asaka could still be someone Rumi-equivalent(or a man), while Rumi is Vermouth. So until Rumi meets Ran or visits the professor, I'm gonna stand comfortably in the middle and equally weigh both options.

Or Shuichi/Subaru.

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19 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

I think she'd probably focus on getting Hidemi/Rena/Kir exposed and killed—especially considering she already suspected her of being a NOC—after all, the reason Shuichi faked his death was so that she could keep her cover. If she dies, then their plan goes up in smoke (that is, unless she would be able to get out big info to them before she died). No need to bring the BO spotlight on Subaru Okiya, and risk those involved with him being caught in the crossfire.

 

But this is Vermouth we're talking about, here. Rei/Toru/Bourbon would have to be on her level, as an actor, to fool her completely, considering that they're frequent partners—and even then, just one slip up could prove very problematic.

 

If she's Rumi—and her deductive prowess is good enough to be able to hint Shinichi/Conan, of all people—her odds of realizing Bourbon's a NOC are higher, especially in tandem with her acting experience. I think her impromptu appearance during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957) decreased the odds that she currently knows that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC. Therefore, I think the odds of contradiction would be lower if Vermouth is not Rumi—it's more likely to me that she's not Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC, than she is Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC.

 

Or Shuichi/Subaru.

If she can kill Kir without getting backlash from the BO, then yeah, that would have to be her move. Otherwise, she would need to explain herself as to why she thought Kir was a spy. Maybe that's when her first reason for suspecting her could work in her favor(unless it's intuition or acting-experience-based).

 

Well, being an infiltrator, u do need to be able to act sufficiently, and with his intelligence and experience, I would assume that Bourbon knows what traps to avoid and what-not during conversations. But who knows...maybe Vermouth is already suspicious of him, but isn't certain enough to leave him be with her treasures.

 

But if she simply had time to investigate everything surrounding that skeleton, then maybe she simply had a time advantage over Conan. I get your reasoning though, and going by that estimated probability, she does have a lower chance of being Vermouth.

 

If she was Vermouth, I feel like that would be a big leap for him to orchestrate, but sure. :P

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13 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

...maybe Vermouth is already suspicious of him, but isn't certain enough to leave him be with her treasures.

Well, even if she were to find out he's a NOC (assuming she doesn't currently know that he is), she would have to be careful in taking action against him—after all, he said if he dies, her secret will get leaked (898/783).

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