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Chekhov MacGuffin

Suspicious characters! Discussion about Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, and others.

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8 hours ago, Serinox said:

But Amanda had ties to the FBI and the CIA and not the BO. Why would she invest in the BO, when she already had close contact to both the domestic and foreign intelligence services of the US?

Let's propose she really did some kind of investement into the BO (to which we have absolutely no proof or even really hints of).

We have enough indications to assume that she was investing to the BO.

First of all, why would a random investor be targeted by the BO. That by itself ties her to them in some way.

Secondly, Haibara already mentioned that unbelievable people would be caught if the police took charge against the BO,... someone with FBI/CIA connections is an unbelievable person to be caught(not really, because corruption exist everywhere).

Thirdly, Haibara even confirmed the existence of investors who invested to the research,....Amanda happens to be an investor.

Lastly, having some ties to the FBI/CIA automatically doesn't make you a good person(so that assumption needs more support). That doesn't necessarily mean she is completely on the BO side either. I'm guessing her ties to the FBI/CIA leaked to the BO and she got targeted because she couldn't be trusted anymore.

 

Though the whole concept of him being a CIA agent seems a bit off to me, since he was a Japanese man living with a British wife in England.

Who's is also very close friends with an FBI agent, who originates from Britain, but lived in America his whole life. From Akai's CIA connections(intel source) and Subaru's interrupted comment("not FBI, but rather..."), and also from the vague indications that the Hondou and the Akai family might be connected, I have enough implications to assume that Tsutomu was a CIA agent.

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That seems very strange that everyone has proudly Hanneda Koji then that's Amanda Hughes, the center of the case. Those two were my very mysterious! Koji why he has a relationship with Amanda while it is a simple shogi player
Theory 1: (Koji is mysterious) Maybe it has introduced a family or the BO, the FBI, CIA, or others. Amanda Hughes wanted to have more data because certainly in the past, Asaka has commi other crimes or even the organization itself. Tsutomu talking about now, there are a lot of shady things about this case, 17 years ago it was in America for Koji case, but then Will is born in America, since it's the whole family that continued . Tsutomu sent a message to Mary to prevent (Scan 972), the message said he made many enemies. There is a problem in the case hanneda just Koji Asaka was involved. Asaka could have killed himself. Tsutomu and knew the danger, he said the words in the message. So this proves that he could be alive. But where is he? His body was not found. And the last thing (then there !!!!) Akai has infiltrated the organization! It's weird is not it? someone who infiltrates an organization where there is the enemy of his father; Asaka did not react when the infiltration of Akai, probably because there was a problem when haneda koji deal! Here! Anyone may publish this block on the forum DCTP? Thank you!

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About "Amanda being an investor", correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be (yet) another mistranslation. In the Japanese file, Amanda was consistently referred to as 資産家 (shisanka), which as far as I know only means a rich/wealthy person in general. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person's an investor (which should be 投資家 - toushika).

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28 minutes ago, Black Demon said:

About "Amanda being an investor", correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be (yet) another mistranslation. In the Japanese file, Amanda was consistently referred to as 資産家 (shisanka), which as far as I know only means a rich/wealthy person in general. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person's an investor (which should be 投資家 - toushika).

 

with as many errors that have come up, I wonder whether it may be necessary for someone to go through the whole case again in Japanese only and then compare it with with the english so that a list of inconsistencies and errors can be created 

 

It might also be worth linking that discussion from the talk page here : http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Talk:Case_from_17_years_ago 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

 

Out of curiosity, when was it said that Akai had a CIA intel source ?

It was implied here...

File595_011.jpg

 

About "Amanda being an investor", correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be (yet) another mistranslation. In the Japanese file, Amanda was consistently referred to as 資産家 (shisanka), which as far as I know only means a rich/wealthy person in general. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person's an investor (which should be 投資家 - toushika).

Anyone that can back-up this claim?

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33 minutes ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

 

I can confirm that she was only ever referred to as Shisanka, and was called that at least 4 times. 

I see, well...considering that she was tied to the BO in someway, she had to have been an investor either way(seeing as she had the means to invest).

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10 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

It was implied here...

File595_011.jpg

 

Then you'd think this source would tell him more than just that—and if he had access to this source for a while, say, more than a year, the FBI should've already known that Rena Mizunashi was CIA... and this should've been the case well before Black Impact (File 499–File 504/Episode 425).

 

For all we know, Shukichi could've been his source.

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3 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Then you'd think this source would tell him more than just that—and if he had access to this source for a while, say, more than a year, the FBI should've already known that Rena Mizunashi was CIA... and this should've been the case well before Black Impact (File 499–File 504/Episode 425).

 

For all we know, Shukichi could've been his source.

The only clue they had to Ethan being a CIA agent was his mention of "company" during his conversation with his colleagues. As soon they got their suspicion of him being an CIA agent, that's when there was a reason for Akai to use his connections to the CIA to get a confirmation + background info on Ethan Hondou, a deceased former agent. I don't think that the CIA would, or even could, risk their active agent's(kir's) life by sharing the crucial info of her mission outside of their work-space, and it's not like Akai was asking for more than just info on Ethan(accoding to Jodie).

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4 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

The only clue they had to Ethan being a CIA agent was his mention of "company" during his conversation with his colleagues. As soon they got their suspicion of him being an CIA agent, that's when there was a reason for Akai to use his connections to the CIA to get a confirmation + background info on Ethan Hondou, a deceased former agent. I don't think that the CIA would, or even could, risk their active agent's(kir's) life by sharing the crucial info of her mission outside of their work-space, and it's not like Akai was asking for more than just info on Ethan(accoding to Jodie).

 

But that was from Shinichi/Conan, right? He got that info in File 584/Episode 485... and didn't tell Jodie until File 595/Episode 495. And clearly, going by that scene, Shuichi had already got his intel.

 

And what about Shuichi saying, to Hidemi/Rena/Kir that the info that Shinichi/Conan found is what led to them figuring out that her father was CIA? You could say that he's being characteristically him, and hiding info from even his allies, but why? This is someone infiltrating the Organization. What is there to be gained from not telling her that he got info from inside the CIA, if he indeed did?

 

If this CIA source had told Shuichi about who Kir was—and they clearly should have, if they didn't (again, assuming this is a thing)—this whole mess that led to Shuichi's fake death could've been avoided.

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1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

But that was from Shinichi/Conan, right? He got that info in File 584/Episode 485... and didn't tell Jodie until File 595/Episode 495. And clearly, going by that scene, Shuichi had already got his intel.

 

And what about Shuichi saying, to Hidemi/Rena/Kir that the info that Shinichi/Conan found is what led to them figuring out that her father was CIA? You could say that he's being characteristically him, and hiding info from even his allies, but why? This is someone infiltrating the Organization. What is there to be gained from not telling her that he got info from inside the CIA, if he indeed did?

 

If this CIA source had told Shuichi about who Kir was—and they clearly should have, if they didn't (again, assuming this is a thing)—this whole mess that led to Shuichi's fake death could've been avoided.

As you can see in the image I showed, Jodie clearly said that she showed shuichi the picture of Ethan. That's a photo that Conan got while getting the info on the "company" conversation. That's a clear indication that he sent Jodie the photo, along with his CIA suspicion(which I think was the reason she came to Agasa's house to begin with).

 

I think you are making hasty conclusions here. It was until after the whole coma incident happened that Akai got the CIA info. There was no way for him to change anything that has transpired in regards to whole hospital incident, and the whole "fake death" plan was not a forced decision, it was their own thought-out decision to get Kir back into the BO.

 

 

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17 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

As you can see in the image I showed, Jodie clearly said that she showed shuichi the picture of Ethan. That's a photo that Conan got while getting the info on the "company" conversation. That's a clear indication that he sent Jodie the photo, along with his CIA suspicion(which I think was the reason she came to Agasa's house to begin with).

 

I think you are making hasty conclusions here. It was until after the whole coma incident happened that Akai got the CIA info. There was no way for him to change anything that has transpired in regards to whole hospital incident, and the whole "fake death" plan was not a forced decision, it was their own thought-out decision to get Kir back into the BO.

 

Shuichi had already gotten his intel. Shinichi's/Conan's intel was merely confirmation, at that point.

 

Had Shuichi made use of this source to its fullest before Black Impact (File 499–File 504/Episode 425)—which, given who he is, I doubt he wouldn't do so—there would've been no need for a fake death plan. Hidemi/Rena/Kir would've never been captured by an unwitting FBI, and her cover thus jeopardized to the point that Shuichi's fake death became necessary to preserve her cover.

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31 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Shuichi had already gotten his intel. Shinichi's/Conan's intel was merely confirmation, at that point.

 

Had Shuichi made use of this source to its fullest before Black Impact (File 499–File 504/Episode 425)—which, given who he is, I doubt he wouldn't do so—there would've been no need for a fake death plan. Hidemi/Rena/Kir would've never been captured by an unwitting FBI, and her cover thus jeopardized to the point that Shuichi's fake death became necessary to preserve her cover.

Just because Jodie said that she showed Akai the photo and that he said he was sure because he confirmed that Ethan is a CIA agent, in the same sentence, doesn't necessarily mean that Akai responded to her directly after she showed him the picture. Why would Jodie bother adding "and after waiting a couple of hours/days, he said he was sure...". To me, it naturally looks like she showed him the photo, he looked it up through his source, then gave Jodie the confirmation. Akai even confirmed this(like u mentioned) by saying that it was through Conan's help that they figured out that Ethan was CIA, which means that after Conan got the CIA lead and Ethan's photo and sent it to Jodie, that's when Akai had reasons to confirm the suspicion through his CIA source(not before that). If Conan's help was merely confirmation, then it's very exaggerated(a lie in fact) to say that Conan's help lead them to finding out that Ethan was CIA(since according to you, Akai somehow already had suspicions of Ethan being CIA).

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44 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

according to you, Akai somehow already had suspicions of Ethan being CIA

 

Look, here's the thing...

 

If Shuichi had access to this source the whole time, then why didn't he make use of it, before that? Surely he would've asked this source about the identity of any CIA agents in the Organization.

 

Again, the events of the Kir arc were not exactly desirable—now, Hidemi's/Rena's/Kir's infiltration is entirely dependent on the Organization not finding out that Shuichi is alive, where, before, this was not the case.

 

Shuichi, if he had this CIA source, should've made better use of it. With his abilities, and, going by your theory, the fact that his father was CIA, there should be no reason for his source to have withheld info like that.

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31 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Shuichi, if he had this CIA source, should've made better use of it. With his abilities, and, going by your theory, the fact that his father was CIA, there should be no reason for his source to have withheld info like that.

What makes you think that his source wouldn't withhold info?

The CIA still has protocols to follow and revealing top secret ongoing missions of active agents, like Kir, to outsiders(no matter who it is) is a very risky move that could potentially backfire to Akai's source.

Giving out info on an inactive deceased former agent is not comparable to info on an active agent like Kir.

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59 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

The CIA still has protocols to follow and revealing top secret ongoing missions of active agents, like Kir, to outsiders(no matter who it is) is a very risky move that could potentially backfire to Akai's source.

 

No more risky than her infiltration now being dependent on his fake death remaining a secret... heck, this might even be more risky.

 

In any case, it was either due to Shuichi not making full use of his source, or that source withholding info from the FBI's best agent, whose own infiltration of the BO made him the most experienced, when it came to them.

 

Here's an idea—Shuichi just went behind James back, went to James' FBI superiors, and asked them to get this info from the CIA—all the while claiming James had told him to do so, when he actually didn't. Shuichi's certainly the type to do such a thing.

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2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

No more risky than her infiltration now being dependent on his fake death remaining a secret... heck, this might even be more risky.

That was Kir's call. She took the risk at hand and decided to go with Conan & Akai's plan, for the sake of her father's mission. The CIA doesn't seem to be involved in the decision making of the "fake death plan". Either way, it's not like the CIA can predict what happened.

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Wakita Kanenori

 

I see two possibilites for Wakita's character...

 

There was so many similarites between his intro and Bourbon's, mainly because it's a restaurant setting involving a waitering detective. Beyond that however, I see one specific similarity, and that's the mention of alcoholic drinks. In Bourbon arc, it was mentioned that Amuro ordered Bourbon before, which was like Gosho's indication that this new character is Bourbon to us. Amuro also tried to deny that he is connected to spy-like behaviors, which again was Gosho's way of teasing us with the truth.

 

In the latest chapter with Wakita however, we get the indirect mention of Rum. The Red Thread noticed that the horse that won is called "Pirate's Spirit", which refers to a pirate's alcohol, which is Rum. The way Wakita said that Kogoro chose such a weak horse(Pirate's spirit=Rum) looks like an indication to me that Gosho is saying Wakita has some form of rivalry/antipathy with Rum, or sees Rum as someone beneath him. Along with the fact that someone with an artificial eye doesn't use an eye-patch, unless they are ashamed to show it(which in that case doesn't make sense that he would openly offer to show his "damaged eye"), it seems more likely that he isn't Rum. (and let's not forget his "out-there-characteristics").

 

Here are the two possibilities:

- Wakita is someone with a grudge against Rum(BO) who might be working with an agency, or is simply connected to one of Rum's victims.

- Wakita is a BO member who underestimates Rum and sees himself as a rival

 

I think the second option seems highly likely at the moment because of another possible hint from Gosho. The hint to him being a BO member could be Gosho's actual reference in this case to The Darkest Nightmare drawn cover art. Gosho most likely used the horse in the movie cover to make a reference in this chapter, which will potentially connect itself to the BO(the star of movie 20). Gosho might be implying that Wakita, who represents the "Darkest Nightmare" horse (that races with "Pirate's Spirit"(Rum)), will be another BO character that might be up to something that can be referred to as "the darkest nightmare"(like the movie), and I think that this might be related to Gin's suspicion on Kogoro. Wakita could be working with Gin to investigate Kogoro and see if he is worth eliminating, which could potentially endanger the Mouri(similar to the spies in the movie). Going back to Wakita's comment to Kogoro, maybe it's Gosho's way of saying that the boss chose Rum("Pirate's Spirit") over Wakita("Darkest Nightmare") as the second-in-command. In this case, maybe his code-name is a spirit that is from the "Dark spirit" category like "Brandy". Brandy is a distilled beverage that is classified as a hard liquor, which follows the pattern that all male members's have code-names that are hard liquors.

 

Remember that this is just speculation based on Gosho's implications, that are open for many interpretations.

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35 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Gosho most likely drew the horse in the movie cover to make a reference to this chapter,

 

The horse was a pun on the word "nightmare" and is a common pun used in video games

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2 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

...to refer to horses?

Wikipedia : A mare is an adult female horse or other equine. In most cases, a mare is a female horse over the age of three

 

"nightmare" is usually a black horse with red or blue flame where it should have a mane and a tail, also sometimes around its feet. 

 

here are some references from pop culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.385198-I-just-noticed-something-about-the-Fictional-creature-Nightmare

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46 minutes ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

Wikipedia : A mare is an adult female horse or other equine. In most cases, a mare is a female horse over the age of three

 

"nightmare" is usually a black horse with red or blue flame where it should have a mane and a tail, also sometimes around its feet. 

 

here are some references from pop culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.385198-I-just-noticed-something-about-the-Fictional-creature-Nightmare

I see now, thanks for the clarification!

 

Well, Aside from the initial purpose of the horse in the Movie cover, he could have still used it in this latest chapter to reference the movie...

...ofc, as I mentioned, there's not much to back this up.

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