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Chekhov MacGuffin

Suspicious characters! Discussion about Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, and others.

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Well, I think that Wakasa is Asaka. The handmirror probably belonged to her. My guess is that Asaka discovered the body of Haneda, along with Rum. Asaka and Rum strugged and made a mess out of the room, but during that time Asaka got her hands on the shogi piece and escaped. Rum left too, because he fears that their fight has been heard, and he couldn't take time to clean the room.

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"Rumi = Vermouth" Theory Summary

 

In-universe hints about Rumi fitting with Vermouth:

1. Rumi knows of Conan's competence as a detective and is always watchful of him. (File 966-968) [Vermouth knows his competence and views him highly]

Spoiler

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2. Rumi is really good at acting clumsy/innocent/shy/scared, to the point that even Conan/Haibara never noticed. (File 966-968, 978) [Vermouth is a star actress]

Spoiler

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3. Rumi has shown a very questionable morality and conflicting sides:
- Grinning while showing a ruthless side in a blood-thirsty manner when all eyes of the relevant people are not on her (File 968, 989). Smirking at the chance of using a potential murder to further her goals (File 978) [Vermouth has at least 20 years of underworld exposure and killing experience]

Spoiler

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- Showing empathy and tears for Ayumi to an extent that sways Haibara from her suspicion (File 989) [File 459: Vermouth left a strong positive effect on Teitan that made Araide question if she is a bad person]

Spoiler

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4. Rumi triggered Haibara's BO-sense (File 978) [only alive female who has done that as far as we know is Vermouth, just like Akai for the male equivalent during Subaru's triggering]

Spoiler

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5. Rumi is shown to have BO intel access and interest in APTX victims (File 1005) [File 823: Vermouth has a clearly portrayed goal to get rid of/hide APTX victims who survived due to shrinking and is high-ranked enough in the BO to get access to APTX victim list]

Spoiler

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6. Rumi has shown interest in Agasa's gadgets & his next-door neighbor (File 966, File 1006) [File 955-956: Vermouth showed interest and suspicion towards Agasa's current neighbor Subaru, who uses the voice-changing choker on a daily basis, and found out from Bourbon that he is Agasa's next-door neighbor]

Spoiler

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potentially relevant foreshadowings/setups by Gosho:

1. Haibara not being able to react immediately to Vermouth's presence anymore (File 852/856) [This makes it possible for Vermouth to be utilized as a "new character"(in disguise) who is around Haibara without constantly putting her on edge and being suspected as BO]

Spoiler

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2. DB seeing Subaru's choker (File 898) [potential setup to Rumi finding out about that gadget through DB, who she keeps involving herself with]

Spoiler

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3. Vermouth's disguise being mistaken for Kid's (File 958), and right before Rumi's intro:

Spoiler

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- previous case (Kid case), focuses on Subaru and the danger of his choker getting exposed (File 965)

Spoiler

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- Rumi intro, DB talks about Kid-level disguises (File 966)

Spoiler

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4. "My favorite is Whiskey" (File 967) ["whiskey" possibly hinting to "Rye", who she is potentially investigating, and a parallel to Jodie's favorite drink "Sherry", who she was investigating (File 343)]

Spoiler

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5. Acting(Ikkyu role-playing) & Disguise(Golfer) theme in the 2nd Rumi-centered case [potential easter eggs to Vermouth's main skills]

Spoiler

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6. Rumi-Subaru parallels (potential foreshadowing to Rumi's future development being similar to Subaru's):
- Rumi going through the reverse of Haibara suspecting Subaru and Conan supporting him (File 624/989)

Spoiler

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- Saving Ayumi from culprit using their skills/experience/knowledge (File 666/989) [Subaru: dealing with crime, Rumi: killing]

Spoiler

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7. Fukamachi(Butler) head turns and Kogoro reaction to strengthened glasses paralleling Rumi's head turns and bumping reaction (File 1009-1010 / 966/988) [potential foreshadowing to Rumi wearing unfit strengthened glasses, which in turn points to her wearing it for a disguise, rather than needing it]

Spoiler

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8. “Wakasa Rumi’s name (留美) has the kanjis for “さ wakasa”, “める todomeru ”, “しさ utsukushisa" that can be read as "Youth halt beauty", which fits with Vermouth's aging being stopped and having never-ending beauty.

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Rum Arc Discussion Series: Higashio Maria
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Spoiler

 

Higashio Maria is a kansai transfer student in Teitan Elementary that was introduced during Kir arc (File 548-549), and was recently reintroduced in Rum arc (File 1006-1008). I will be discussing this suspicion, that I've held since her reintro, about how she could be Asaka.

 

Asaka's disappearance

 

Asaka's disappearance is very suspicious, since she was last seen with Amanda, who was killed later that day, and was perceived as her bodyguard. Rum was able to successfully kill Amanda with the APTX4869 prototype drug (made by the Miyano parents) and cover it up as if nothing happened, according to the Black Organization's M.O (as seen with how clean and tidy her room looked 17 years ago, in contrast to Kohji's messy room, File 948). Despite being a female figure guarding Amanda the last time she was seen, Asaka was somehow still missing from the crime scene and not found dead along with Amanda (after failing to hinder Rum's plans). As I've suggested in previous discussions, Asaka's disappearance could be because she was drugged by Rum along with Amanda 17 years ago, but instead of dying, she actually shrank like Conan and fled (which would explain why she is missing). "Asaka taking the same drug as him" was a possibility that Conan also considered during his first speculation of Asaka's identity (File 953), so there's a good chance that Gosho was foreshadowing what had happened to Asaka.
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In File 948, Haibara explained that she tried to recreate her parents' APTX4869 with their remaining data (even though the BO wanted her to make something else that wasn't a poison), meaning that her APTX4869 prototype, which shrinks as a side effect, originated from her parents' APTX4869 model.
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In File 1025, Gosho further clarifies Haibara's statement by having her directly monologue that her parents created the same drug that shrank her and Shinichi, meaning that according to her, the shrinking side effect definitely originated from her parents' APTX4869 prototype.
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This information further underlines the possibility that the 17-year-old prototype could also shrink people as a side-effect in rare occasions, which in turn could easily explain how Asaka was able to disappear from the crime scene despite being in a position that should have made her someone Rum got rid of in the process of successfully killing Amanda.

 

Foreshadowing to Asaka's identity

 

What we know about Asaka is very limited, but the info that we do have suggest a connection between Asaka and Kohji. In File 948, when Conan read about the hand-mirror, Haibara explained that it was a popular hand-mirror and that her sister had one of them which she inherited from their mother, and later suggested that Kohji might've inherited the hand-mirror from his mother as well. However, we later find out in file 953 that Asaka was seen holding that same hand-mirror. This immediately suggest that the hand-mirror was passed on from Asaka to Kohji, implying that they were familiar with each other to that extent. If you take Haibara's correlation to Kohji about "sister inheriting mirror from mother", it's possible that Gosho was using Haibara's story to foreshadow that just like Haibara's sister, Kohji's sister(Asaka) inherited the hand-mirror their mother, who in this case would be Haneda Ichiyo (Haneda Kohji's confirmed mother-in-paper).
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In other words, Kohji borrowed his sister's hand-mirror in order to prepare for his meeting with Amanda, and his sister later leaves with Amanda to act as her bodyguard.

 

Going back to Conan's first suspicion of Asaka, he suspected that Asaka took the same drug as him and that Mary would be the prime suspect. This is something Conan also did in regards to Rum's identity, where according to his first suspicion, Yamato Kansuke came the closest to the descriptions of Rum (File 913).
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Iori Muga, who I deduced could be Rum, fits with Kansuke's characteristics. They are both considered effeminate men (both have long curly dark hair), a strong build, Kansuke's left eye is damaged while Rum's left eye is foreshadowed to be a prosthetic (Higo plushie "left eye coming off" reference, File 999) and Muga's left lense consistently reflected like Rumi's suspected blind right side (File 981-982), and if Muga is hiding 5 years from his age like Satami Saya (File 920), then he would be the same age as Kansuke. If Kansuke is a Rum model that shares direct similarities to Rum, then the likelihood that Mary was utilized as an Asaka model is very high.
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The one who shares the most characteristical similarities with Mary, and thus could be Asaka, is the latest transfer student Higashio Maria.

 

Mary and Maria have pretty much the same name. "Maria" is the latin form of "Mary". Gosho even went as far as to have Ogura mistake Mary's name for "Mari-chan" (File 928-930), which could have been intentional on his part in order to emphasize the similarity to "Maria-chan".
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Both Mary and Maria are also light-haired kids and are hinted at being half-japanese.
Mary's sister Elena is confirmed to be half-japanese (File 1011), and Maria has the english influence, to the point that her grandma called the toy "bird-chan" (File 1007).
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Asaka was also compared to Ran (File 954), which also could be Gosho's hint to that Asaka is in reality a normal 17-year-old girl who was mistaken as a "personal SP"/official bodyguard for Amanda, due to her skills. If Maria is shrunken adult Asaka, then the comparison to Ran would make sense too, since she has a sweet personality like her that is very subverted from everyone's expectations of "the bodyguard Asaka"/"a weird person"(as Ran put it), despite her similar qualities.
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In other words, 17-year-old Maria came along with Haneda Kohji to the US in order to watch him play in the chess tournament. Her black hair colour in the Asaka photo would be as a result of her dying her hair black, like how Gosho seeded that concept in with Takashi during department store case (File 941).
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And after she got drugged by Rum and shrank, she changed her one-tail hairstyle (as seen in the photo) to her current twin-tail hair style, just like how that concept was seeded in with Isuzu from secret cafe case (File 994), in order to not get easily recognized.
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If Maria shrank as Asaka 17 years ago, then the true purpose it would have would mainly be to answer the question regarding Conan's and Haibara's aging state, and that answer would be that they can't age like Vermouth, since Maria is still a 7-year-old, because, as mentioned above, the drug they were affected by is a recreated version of the one Asaka would have been drugged by (and is very likely to have the same effect). If Maria has been a child for 17 years then her parents would be much older and the parents that she is currently said to have (File 1006) would have to be fake/stand-in parents.
Going back to the idea that Asaka was Kohji's sister who inherited the hand-mirror from her mother Haneda Ichiyo, there's another detail about Maria that fits with this interpretation. In File 1006, Maria's grandma gave her the advice "it's important for a girl to watch over her appearance", which is very consistent with someone who would pass down a hand-mirror. This could be a small clue to that Maria's grandma is actually her mother, and by extension, Haneda Ichiyo (which in turn would make her grandpa Haneda Yasuharu). In other words, those cherished memories in her reintro case was actually her with her real parents (Kohji's parents-in-paper). Considering that Gosho hid Maria's grandparents' family name outside their house, that leaves such a possibility open.
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Wakasa Rumi's target

 

Gosho has a tendency to foreshadow the introduction of new plot elements by hinting at it just before it happens. in this case, just before Higashio Maria was reintroduced, the previous chapter had a cliffhanger with Wakasa Rumi staring at the APTX4869 victim list (File 1005).
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This could be Gosho's introduction foreshadowing to that Higashio Maria is that very target Rumi is after, Asaka (who potentially got drugged 17 years ago). In fact, both of Maria's reappearances in Rum arc consistently followed Rumi's appearance, as if she could be tied with her in the ongoing plot (File 966 & 1006).
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Following my deduction regarding Rumi's identity being Vermouth, this would automatically fill in the holes regarding Rumi's APTX victim interest, since Vermouth has personal motivations for keeping the shrinking effect hidden. If the BO dismissed Asaka as dead, despite her missing corpse, someone like Vermouth, who knows about the shrinking effect's existence would suspect that Asaka is alive. Rumi's goal in Teitan Elementary could therefore be to not only investigate Haibara's neighbor in the Kudo mansion (Subaru), but also investigate Asaka's disappearance. Her disguising as a potential Asaka, carrying Kohji-case-related objects and using a dying-message-derived name ("wACASA RUMi") could be a grand scheme in order to use Conan's help in locating Asaka, who ends up being the newest transfer student in class 1B after Haibara.

 

Maria's Personality

 

Maria's personality is very child-like and innocent, and ever since her intro in File 548, she never showed any signs of having an adult mind (more than likely because even if she happens to be Asaka, she was probably not initially conceived as another APTX victim). How Gosho could handle such a plot move, where a seemingly normal older character enters the plot, is maybe by playing the amnesia card, meaning that Maria suffered memory loss as a result of a post-traumatic stress from the Kohji case. In which case, Maria-chan may have lived those 17 years with her "grandparents" in the Kansai area as if she was a "normal" child.
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Summary:
- Asaka was drugged by Rum along with Amanda 17 years ago, but shrank and fled.
- Asaka could be Kohji's sister, who lent her hand-mirror to him, which she inherited from her mother, Haneda Ichiyo.
- Asaka could be Higashio Maria.
- Wakasa Rumi is investigating Asaka's potential shrinking.

 

 

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4 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Just curious, what are your alternatives (alternative theories, that is) to Asaka being Maria and Rumi being Vermouth? In other words, if Maria isn't Asaka, then who is Asaka... and if Vermouth isn't Rumi, then who is Rumi?

I honestly don't have any alts. At least not yet. I strive to find that one answer that Gosho is foreshadowing, and unless the plot hints to otherwise, I have no reason to look for other answers, right now at least.

 

Perhaps you have some new perspectives you would like to enlighten me with? :)

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2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Perhaps you have some new perspectives you would like to enlighten me with? :)

 

You can check your PM inbox on DCTP for a more thorough response, but, basically...

 

Other Asaka suspects = Rumi, Muga, Hyōe (or should I say, person who is now pretending to be Hyōe after the real Hyōe died in that accident 10 years ago, assuming that theory is true)

 

If Rumi's not Vermouth, then I see her as someone with a score to settle with Rum, and someone who had to have been at the scene (in order to take the Ryuma shogi piece—take it from Kōji's dead hand, presumably). Ergo, she must be Asaka, or a sixth party (Asaka, Amanda, Kōji, Rum, Tsutomu are the 5 I presume were at the scene on that day) on the scene whose presence we haven't yet been privy to.

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23 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

You can check your PM inbox on DCTP for a more thorough response, but, basically...

 

Other Asaka suspects = Rumi, Muga, Hyōe (or should I say, person who is now pretending to be Hyōe after the real Hyōe died in that accident 10 years ago, assuming that theory is true)

 

If Rumi's not Vermouth, then I see her as someone with a score to settle with Rum, and someone who had to have been at the scene (in order to take the Ryuma shogi piece—take it from Kōji's dead hand, presumably). Ergo, she must be Asaka, or a sixth party (Asaka, Amanda, Kōji, Rum, Tsutomu are the 5 I presume were at the scene on that day) on the scene whose presence we haven't yet been privy to.

The next question in turn would be "what happened to Asaka that lead to their disappearance?"

 

As for a the sixth party suggestion, I find it unlikely that Gosho will add new players that we haven't at least somehow been hinted to have been there (like how Tsutomu's involvement was brought up outside of the Kohji website) more than 77 chapters later since the Kohji case intro.

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1 hour ago, MeiTanteixX said:

The next question in turn would be "what happened to Asaka that lead to their disappearance?"

 

Rum didn't force his way into Amanda's room—that would've likely led to it ending up messy. If Asaka was standing outside Amanda's room, if Rum had just began by attacking Asaka, then he'd have to deal with hiding the body—and if Amanda didn't expect him, and noticed Asaka was gone or wondered why her bodyguard let this person in, the room might've become messy as Amanda panicked and tried to defend herself. If Asaka was standing inside the room, then Amanda would've likely noticed the commotion of Rum attacking Asaka, and if their fight spilled into the room from the doorway, Amanda's room could've ended up messy, also because Amanda might've reacted in panic to Rum.

 

More likely, Rum was let in by Amanda and Asaka, neither of whom thought the former's life was in danger—if Rum was someone Amanda expected, why attack immediately and risk his intent being exposed immediately when he could just slip in casually and poison Amanda under Asaka's nose. In other words, Amanda was killed first, and then Asaka was attacked.

 

If Asaka wasn't APTX'd, then Rum must've been distracted—likely by Kōji (Asaka Vs Rum might've been underway in the hallway by the time Kōji came into view, or he came into view of the room just in time to see the fight spill out into the hallway). I presume that and Tsutomu's interference bought time for Asaka to regain consciousness—Asaka probably regained consciousness to find Kōji dead. Presuming they'd be arrested, they fled the scene.

 

Alternatively, Asaka could've been talking with Kōji, thus giving Rum the chance to go and kill Amanda unimpeded. Which then would've led to a fight between Rum and Asaka & Kōji. After knocking Asaka out, Rum immediately hurried to silence Kōji, since if he killed Kōji quick, he could prevent him from escaping, and then come back to silence the unconscious Asaka—silencing Asaka before Kōji ran the risk of letting Kōji escape. After that, Tsutomu intervention, Rum flees, and then Asaka flees.

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8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Rum didn't force his way into Amanda's room—that would've likely led to it ending up messy. If Asaka was standing outside Amanda's room, if Rum had just began by attacking Asaka, then he'd have to deal with hiding the body—and if Amanda didn't expect him, and noticed Asaka was gone or wondered why her bodyguard let this person in, the room might've become messy as Amanda panicked and tried to defend herself. If Asaka was standing inside the room, then Amanda would've likely noticed the commotion of Rum attacking Asaka, and if their fight spilled into the room from the doorway, Amanda's room could've ended up messy, also because Amanda might've reacted in panic to Rum.

Mhm.

 

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More likely, Rum was let in by Amanda and Asaka, neither of whom thought the former's life was in danger—if Rum was someone Amanda expected, why attack immediately and risk his intent being exposed immediately when he could just slip in casually and poison Amanda under Asaka's nose. In other words, Amanda was killed first, and then Asaka was attacked.

I agree.

Considering that room service was ordered during Amanda's previous meeting, hinting to Sato's trivia about Shogi players eating sweets during a game (File 946), Rum could've also started a game of chess with Amanda in order to get her snack and drink tea during the game (so he can poison it).

 

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If Asaka wasn't APTX'd, then Rum must've been distracted—likely by Kōji (Asaka Vs Rum might've been underway in the hallway by the time Kōji came into view, or he came into view of the room just in time to see the fight spill out into the hallway).

A fight would, in theory, have to cause cause a mess in Amanda's room. Considering that Asaka is a bodyguard figure, it wouldn't be an mess-free takedown. If he was distracted, then he wouldn't have time to clean things up. Wouldn't you agree that the information about a tidy/unmoved room is suggesting that Rum had enough time without distraction to clean up any Asaka-fight-aftermath mess?

 

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I presume that and Tsutomu's interference bought time for Asaka to regain consciousness—Asaka probably regained consciousness to find Kōji dead. Presuming they'd be arrested, they fled the scene.

 

Alternatively, Asaka could've been talking with Kōji, thus giving Rum the chance to go and kill Amanda unimpeded. Which then would've led to a fight between Rum and Asaka & Kōji. After knocking Asaka out, Rum immediately hurried to silence Kōji, since if he killed Kōji quick, he could prevent him from escaping, and then come back to silence the unconscious Asaka—silencing Asaka before Kōji ran the risk of letting Kōji escape. After that, Tsutomu intervention, Rum flees, and then Asaka flees.

Ok, this one explains Amanda's clean room, but if Kohji was immediately handled after Asaka was taken down, how did Kohji have time to prepare the dying message? If he was wounded(defensive wounds) and poisoned before Tsutomu interruption, would he be able to move to the bathroom, crack/remove the hand-mirror from its frame, accurately cut out the letters and reassemble the remaining shards into the hand-mirror frame, leave the bathroom and place the mirror under the broken crockery pieces before finally not being able to take the pain of the poison and die?

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52 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

A fight would, in theory, have to cause cause a mess in Amanda's room. Considering that Asaka is a bodyguard figure, it wouldn't be an mess-free takedown. If he was distracted, then he wouldn't have time to clean things up. Wouldn't you agree that the information about a tidy/unmoved room is suggesting that Rum had enough time without distraction to clean up any Asaka-fight-aftermath mess?

 

Ok, this one explains Amanda's clean room, but if Kohji was immediately handled after Asaka was taken down, how did Kohji have time to prepare the dying message? If he was wounded(defensive wounds) and poisoned before Tsutomu interruption, would he be able to move to the bathroom, crack/remove the hand-mirror from its frame, accurately cut out the letters and reassemble the remaining shards into the hand-mirror frame, leave the bathroom and place the mirror under the broken crockery pieces before finally not being able to take the pain of the poison and die?

 

For that scenario, it would need a very specific time window in order to keep her room from having to be cleaned up by Rum—perhaps after poisoning Amanda, Rum went to silence Asaka (perhaps Rum called Asaka in when Asaka was standing outside). At this point, Kōji just happens to come by—he notices either Rum and Asaka going in the room or notices that no one is outside the room. He elects to then enter the room—and finds Asaka under attack (and likely sees Amanda dead, as well). A surprise attack by Rum near the door, inside the room, would allow there to be physical contact without messing up the room—at the very least, it would keep any potential mess to a minimum. Rum immediately stops and lunges at this witness to his crimes. Kōji runs, but Rum is able to stay right on his heels—this leads Kōji to conclude that he won't outrun Rum, so he makes for his own room, and tries to keep Rum out. At this point, Asaka is either in a haze from Rum's surprise attack, or is unconscious due to it.

 

In the former case, Asaka comes at Rum, only for Rum to take advantage of Asaka's haze and incapacitate them—before he can APTX Asaka, however, he sees Tsutomu running at him. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends with Rum fleeing the scene.

 

In the latter case, Rum sees Tsutomu running at him as he tries to get Kōji's door open. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends in Rum fleeing the scene.

 

Perhaps Tsutomu leaves Asaka in the lurch, but perhaps he doesn't—the former scenario fits better with Asaka being rendered unconscious by Rum's initial surprise attack, while the latter scenario fits better with Asaka managing to stay conscious longer after Rum's initial surprise attack.

 

As for the Asaka talking with Kōji scenario, this would lead to Asaka putting up a better fight—nonetheless, Kōji would still be forced into his room. When Asaka is finally rendered unconscious, Rum sees Tsutomu running at him. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends in Rum fleeing the scene. In this case, Tsutomu intervening on Asaka's behalf and getting them out of there while they're unconscious fits this scenario better than Tsutomu leaving Asaka in the lurch.

 

As for the Ryuma shogi piece, I believe Rum would've destroyed it had he actually gotten his hands on it—its continued existence would place him at risk. Keeping it around for 17 years seems foolish of him—keeping it around for 17 years and then giving it to Vermouth seems even more foolish of him. If Gin doesn't trust Vermouth's antics, why would Rum, a man Gin seems to respect the authority of, and a man who has gotten Vermouth to back off (yes, Movie 20 isn't canon, but didn't Gosho write that scene—correct me if I'm wrong)? Even if Anokata told Rum she should be allowed to have it, if she was insistent on having it for her plans, her getting her hands on it at all would require Rum to keep it for 17 years—which is very unlikely to me.

 

So if Rum didn't take it, either Asaka or Tsutomu took it. If Asaka were to take it on their own, after regaining consciousness, that decision would be based on impulse rather than cohesive thought. If Tsutomu took it, perhaps he left it with Asaka.

 

Since Rumi has the piece, this line of reasoning lends to the idea that Rumi is Asaka.

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8 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

For that scenario, it would need a very specific time window in order to keep her room from having to be cleaned up by Rum—perhaps after poisoning Amanda, Rum went to silence Asaka (perhaps Rum called Asaka in when Asaka was standing outside). At this point, Kōji just happens to come by—he notices either Rum and Asaka going in the room or notices that no one is outside the room. He elects to then enter the room—and finds Asaka under attack (and likely sees Amanda dead, as well). A surprise attack by Rum near the door, inside the room, would allow there to be physical contact without messing up the room—at the very least, it would keep any potential mess to a minimum. Rum immediately stops and lunges at this witness to his crimes. Kōji runs, but Rum is able to stay right on his heels—this leads Kōji to conclude that he won't outrun Rum, so he makes for his own room, and tries to keep Rum out. At this point, Asaka is either in a haze from Rum's surprise attack, or is unconscious due to it.

 

In the former case, Asaka comes at Rum, only for Rum to take advantage of Asaka's haze and incapacitate them—before he can APTX Asaka, however, he sees Tsutomu running at him. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends with Rum fleeing the scene.

 

In the latter case, Rum sees Tsutomu running at him as he tries to get Kōji's door open. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends in Rum fleeing the scene.

 

Perhaps Tsutomu leaves Asaka in the lurch, but perhaps he doesn't—the former scenario fits better with Asaka being rendered unconscious by Rum's initial surprise attack, while the latter scenario fits better with Asaka managing to stay conscious longer after Rum's initial surprise attack.

 

As for the Asaka talking with Kōji scenario, this would lead to Asaka putting up a better fight—nonetheless, Kōji would still be forced into his room. When Asaka is finally rendered unconscious, Rum sees Tsutomu running at him. He quickly realizes he has to silence Kōji—now. He breaks in, finally. Kōji sustains defensive wounds before Rum forces APTX down his throat. Tsutomu then barges in and fights Rum. The fight ends in Rum fleeing the scene. In this case, Tsutomu intervening on Asaka's behalf and getting them out of there while they're unconscious fits this scenario better than Tsutomu leaving Asaka in the lurch.

I see, so in the latter scenario, Kohji locks Rum out as well, and Kohji and Asaka are not having their chat inside his room.

 

Quote

 

As for the Ryuma shogi piece, I believe Rum would've destroyed it had he actually gotten his hands on it—its continued existence would place him at risk. Keeping it around for 17 years seems foolish of him—keeping it around for 17 years and then giving it to Vermouth seems even more foolish of him. If Gin doesn't trust Vermouth's antics, why would Rum, a man Gin seems to respect the authority of, and a man who has gotten Vermouth to back off (yes, Movie 20 isn't canon, but didn't Gosho write that scene—correct me if I'm wrong)? Even if Anokata told Rum she should be allowed to have it, if she was insistent on having it for her plans, her getting her hands on it at all would require Rum to keep it for 17 years—which is very unlikely to me.

Oh no, it doesn't even have to be the exact same piece. for starters, such a piece wouldn't even be able to endanger him, since it's just a shogi piece that you can wipe fingerprints away from. nothing about such a piece could be narrowed down to originating from the Kohji case, unless there's distinguishable marks on it that a photo or a non-biased witness could corroborate was made by/belonged to Kohji. And like I said, it doesn't have to be the same piece. It's enough for Vermouth to get ahold of the info that such piece existed, whether Rum got rid of the piece or not.

(not sure if Gosho wrote that M20 scene, but I wouldn't dismiss that either way, since Gosho was acting as a supervisor)

 

Quote

So if Rum didn't take it, either Asaka or Tsutomu took it. If Asaka were to take it on their own, after regaining consciousness, that decision would be based on impulse rather than cohesive thought. If Tsutomu took it, perhaps he left it with Asaka.

 

Since Rumi has the piece, this line of reasoning lends to the idea that Rumi is Asaka.

And I assume there's no suggestions yet for how that shogi piece, which Kohji must have clenched in the middle of his right palm, plays into the dying message or identitfies Rum?

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6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Oh no, it doesn't even have to be the exact same piece. for starters, such a piece wouldn't even be able to endanger him, since it's just a shogi piece that you can wipe fingerprints away from. nothing about such a piece could be narrowed down to originating from the Kohji case, unless there's distinguishable marks on it that a photo or a non-biased witness could corroborate was made by/belonged to Kohji. And like I said, it doesn't have to be the same piece. It's enough for Vermouth to get ahold of the info that such piece existed, whether Rum got rid of the piece or not.

(not sure if Gosho wrote that M20 scene, but I wouldn't dismiss that either way, since Gosho was acting as a supervisor anyway)

 

And I assume there's no suggestions yet for how that shogi piece, which Kohji must have clenched in the middle of his right palm, plays into the dying message or identitfies Rum?

 

More of a just-to-be-safe measure than anything else.

 

Via deduction? With or without testimony from Rum (again, I'd doubt he'd just tell her about that)? I'd think the only one who'd know about the piece and its significance would be the one who took it from Kōji's dead hand—even if the case info specifies that a Ryuma piece that was there before was missing (assuming they took note of such a fact, of course), the only one who could be certain that it was part of Kōji's message is the one who pried it out of his hand.

 

Honestly? No. I just don't feel comfortable, at this stage, making predictions about this dying message—and that's even if we do, right now, have all the pieces.

 

"Ryuma Carasuma." That's what we seem to have—I don't know how that points to Kanenori Wakita.

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1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

More of a just-to-be-safe measure than anything else.

 

Via deduction? With or without testimony from Rum (again, I'd doubt he'd just tell her about that)? I'd think the only one who'd know about the piece and its significance would be the one who took it from Kōji's dead hand—even if the case info specifies that a Ryuma piece that was there before was missing (assuming they took note of such a fact, of course), the only one who could be certain that it was part of Kōji's message is the one who pried it out of his hand.

that, or just anyone else that got ahold of Rum's testimony, like the boss (who views Vermouth as his favorite due to some relationship).

 

the one who pried it out of his hand could be Rum himself.

 

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Honestly? No. I just don't feel comfortable, at this stage, making predictions about this dying message—and that's even if we do, right now, have all the pieces.

 

"Ryuma Carasuma." That's what we seem to have—I don't know how that points to Kanenori Wakita.

that's the issue with "Wakita Kanenori". His name itself is an obvious alias derived from "Toki wa kanenari" (more than likely at least). In other words, without an actual real first name that doesn't seem like an alias, there's no method to idenitfying him as Rum through the dying message (assuming he is even Rum to begin with), and I don't see us getting a new name from him that the shogi piece + whatever remaining clues can allude to.

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33 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

the one who pried it out of his hand could be Rum himself.

 

that's the issue with "Wakita Kanenori". His name itself is an obvious alias derived from "Toki wa kanenari" (more than likely at least). In other words, without an actual real first name that doesn't seem like an alias, there's no method to idenitfying him as Rum through the dying message (assuming he is even Rum to begin with), and I don't see us getting a new name from him that the shogi piece + whatever remaining clues can allude to.

 

I honestly think either Asaka or Tsutomu would have had more windows of opportunity to take it. I guess it depends on whether you think the piece Rumi has is the very same one pried out of Kōji's hand or not—if it is, she's more likely to be Asaka.

 

I have to wonder what prompted him to choose that specific alias—whether he's Rum or not, for him to happen to have an alias that, re-arranged and translated into English, is Rum's catchphrase (at least, it's his catchphrase in the context of these "Hurry up and give me intel on Shinichi Kudō" messages he's sent to Bourbon)... is it just an out-of-universe signal to readers from Gosho, or does the man with this alias have a reason for choosing it?

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3 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

I honestly think either Asaka or Tsutomu would have had more windows of opportunity to take it. I guess it depends on whether you think the piece Rumi has is the very same one pried out of Kōji's hand or not—if it is, she's more likely to be Asaka.

All I can say is... there's no requirement for Rumi's piece(s) to be the exact same object(s) taken from that case because they are generic objects that aren't unique to that incident. You can find an uma piece anywhere. We can at least infer however that such knowledge was acquired by her (whether it was by directly being in possession of said objects or whether she got the info/objects second-hand).

 

Quote

I have to wonder what prompted him to choose that specific alias—whether he's Rum or not, for him to happen to have an alias that, re-arranged and translated into English, is Rum's catchphrase (at least, it's his catchphrase in the context of these "Hurry up and give me intel on Shinichi Kudō" messages he's sent to Bourbon)... is it just an out-of-universe signal to readers from Gosho, or does the man with this alias have a reason for choosing it?

I'm pretty confident about this being an in-universe word play, much like "Mizunashi Rena"="no water (0) re (0) na (7)".

My interpretation on that is straightforward. Wakita uses the idiom "Toki wa Kane nari" frequently (which without any translations was made directly into a name by rearranging letters). He is after all portrayed to be an edokko who uses japanese proverbs. Now, as for the later bit about Rum using an english version of that quote, that's a matter of what ones preconception of Rum is, if he is someone more accustomed to the english language, or if he is an edokko who for some reason decided to use it in a more out-of-character way. In the former angle, then it's possible that there's some kind of influence between Rum and Wakita that lead to both of them using the same idiom (but in their own way). In the latter angle, then that would mean that Wakita, as Rum, simply chose it because that was the name that came natural to him, because he uses its origin often, even in a different language.

 

In the same way, if he is indeed working on Gin's behalf when it comes to Kogoro, and if he is indeed behind Mary's shrinking (as alluded to by his fitting covered left eye to Akai's left eye, which was hit by a Mary-knife-hand-strike), He is more than likely the source of the idiom "It's like encountering a demon in the darkness" as well, which could mean that he is indeed the idiom bank who (in the former angle) influences his fellow members (maybe as a high-up senior/mentor/coach figure) or (in the latter angle) simply rubbed off on Gin as second-in-command (with the latest SDB allusion of antipathy between Gin and Rum, this latter angle seems unlikely).

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I wonder where the name Asaka came from? 

Was the dying message of the Koji Haneda case meant to hint Karasuma or RUM/Asaka ? Or both ?

 

this part of the story seems really strange to me. Whoever the characters are, why do we have those 3 names in that dying message and what’s with that name Asaka ?

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Wakasa Rumi's memories

Spoiler

My suspicions about this proverb about the kakugyo (watchtower bishop) and Kohji asking if Rumi (someone) will still kill him despite that, as well as Rumi calling him foolish, is that Kohji surrendered to his death and was calmly ready to use the bishop piece as a dying message (hence fitting with the proverb "future holds a good move...", since its move will take effect in the future after he dies), and Rumi (who is implied to be BO) had come to his room with intentions to kill him before Rum got to him (wild shot: because she wanted to prevent APTX usage by Rum), but Kohji, having an inkling on her inconsistent intentions with Amanda's killer, convinced Rumi, who took his proverb as the piece being his good luck charm (hence the flashback trigger from "good luck charm"), to pretty much let him make his stand against Amanda's killer with his "good-fortuned" retaliation (which actually meant to leave the bishop piece as a crucial part of the dying message and die by Amanda's killer's hand), thus leading to his death and her calling him a foolish guy for his martyr-like act, and perhaps also because Rum took the bishop piece from his hand in the end (since he doesn't have it on his hand in her memory), making everything seem like a failed retaliation. That would mean that Rumi was there to see him orchestrate the dying message and know what the relevant pieces are (whether she takes anything later or not) and hid herself when Rum came in to kill him (since this was noted as Rum's mistake alone, and not any other BO figure).

 

Either Gosho is being fair with the flashback implications (meaning that Kohji indeed wondered if she was gonna kill him), or he is going to extreme lengths of highlighting misleading snipbits from completely different contexts of her memory to fuel the Rum mislead. Personally, I'm leaning towards him being fair on this, since unlike Conan during swimsuit and Ran during Chinatown, Rumi doesn't seem to have recollection issues (since she boldly calls Kohji foolish, meaning she remembers Kohji's actions), so it doesn't make sense for her to recall out-of-context snipbits when she already remembers the context (unlike Ran and Conan).

6t6p5rm.png
I don't think Kohji's proverb necessarily excludes the piece's promoted side (uma) from being relevant, since the proverb can just be his way of emphasizing the piece as a whole to be important for later. The fact that Gosho revealed the piece with its uma side in File 1008, and then highlights the piece with a kaku proverb here makes both sides candidates (and perhaps it's the least obvious one with that logic, uma, seeing as we had the Rum horse easter eggs).

 

Wakasa Rumi's pain

Spoiler

Conan concluding from Rumi just pressing on her eye area that she has monocular vision is to me just another Gosho attempt to mislead, because her pressing like that in general can also be a sign of headache/migraine. This is yet another symptom of wearing unfit glasses imo.
Also, her excuse about feeling "anemic" is an interesting choice, since it immediately reminds me of Vermouth, who made the same excuse for Masumi collapsing in File 822.

RgB3OHC.png

Conan's fake identity examples

Spoiler

"Such as a Detective, who'd change it to something that makes it easier to extract information"
--> Kuroda

"Or a Spy, who'd turn into someone well suited to the place they're infiltrating"
--> Wakita

"Or Someone who'd pose as someone else to deceive people..."
--> Wakasa
RFEwNXD.png
So in other words...

Tsutomu is "Kuroda Hyoue the Superintendent" to extract information easier.

the Spy (helping Gin) is "Wakita Kanenori the Chef"  to get well suited to Iroha that he's infiltrating.

Vermouth is posing as someone else ("Wakasa Rumi the deputy homeroom teacher") to deceive people.

 

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Let me Introduce myself as new member (i just know this page lol), i am DC fan since kid, my bod also same as kudo/conan.

 

This is only my Opinion about what happen on that night (Kohji and Amanda case), rum, and his move.

Recently i see a new hint on manga that wakasa shows her memory about the past. *ps sorry for bad english

 

[1] First is, Amanda Hughes. She was a wealthy and had some influence to FBI/CIA as haibara said. As she have influence to FBI/CIA, she must be trust her life to her bodyguard. As a bodyguard, he/she (Asaka) must be tough/skilled as fighter (Fist and Gun). Night before she died, she had afternoon tea with Haneda Kohji, of course in Kohji's room. Amanda room is clean when she found died, diffrent from Kohji Room. Most likely she killed by the Organization. As you know, when they both died, something is left in Kohji's room, The Mascara Mirror has be the one as Evidence "Dying Message" PTON => UMASCARA. You have to remember in the episodes that Haibara's parent said that they both invited on to CARASUMA group as scientist to do some mad project but Atsushi Miyano refused it sice that group had some bad rumours (Manga 1011). At the end, they both agree to join them since Elena Miyano had Pregnancy. At this situation, i think that UMASCARA wasn't dying message to RUM Codename, but it was an Organization/Group Carasuma that responsible to their death. *CARASUMA mentioned as (Carasu means crow/raven in japanese) Crow logo/emblem.

 

[2] Why did the Mascara Mirror in kohji's room? Haneda Kohji's look like is not using mascara. Mascara mentioned in the Mall when conan sees Haibara using some mascara and look like the little girl he found in Sera Masumi's room. So, i describe mascara is the black stripe below the eyes. Compare their eyes (Akai's, Sera's, Marry's and Haneda Kohji's). I Assume the mascara is not belong to Haneda Kohji. It belongs to Amanda Hughes. Why the mascara in Kohji's room? The one who hold that mirror is ASAKA the bodyguard. 

In that case i have 3 conclusion that, Haneda Kohji witnessing some people he recognize from CARASUMA Group do the Assasination of Amanda Hughes by Black Organization so he left dying message (He hold the scissors) then killed by aptx4869, or Amanda ask ASAKA to left her dying message, ASAKA recognize the killer from CARASUMA Group and left dying message in Kohji's room (Fight and Making Haneda Kohji unconscious), organization realized the mess so they kill Haneda Kohji using aptx4869, or woman bodygoard ASAKA is really bad guy codename RUM and do kill Amanda Hughes cleanly + eliminate Haneda Kohji as eyewitness (Just like Shrinking Shinichi Kudo). But my last conclusion can be busted if Wakasa Rumi is Asaka and Have relationship to Haneda Kohji and Amanda Hughes.

 

[3] It seems Black organization might be hunt the bodyguard called asaka. It seems possible because he/she also missing after the incident. Why so? I dont know the reason. But in this timeline, Tsutomu Akai who investigate this case also went missing. Maybe Tsutomu Akai found some clue and chasing Black Organization (Based on His text to His wife, Mary), also protect the bodyguard using witness protection program. If Asaka is really a bad guy from Organization, Asaka must be special agent codename RUM. As GIN mentioned in black porsche 365A that he really dont care about RUM's MISTAKE (RUM Involved in that case), but i dont think ASAKA the Bodyguard is a bad guy. The fact what eyewitness (Someone who asked by Mr Kokuri) said is, The bodyguard called ASAKA is woman and she is the one who held the mascara mirror (Based on Anime 864 ending). Its really a clue that the only woman in rum arc suspect is Wakasa Rumi. Is that she was the Amanda's bodyguard 17 years ago??

 

[4] Wakasa Rumi's memory regretting about Haneda Kohji's death. Why? If she really a bad people, she dont have any reason to regretting someone she killed.  or else She might have relation to Haneda Kohji/Amanda Hughes (Since they both a Pro Shogi Player and a Fans).What is her relationship then? It seems she also talk to haneda. Girlfriend maybe? She also have Shogi Pawns and hate the way he (Kohji) choose to die. I dont have and clue for this until next episode, but i assume that Wakasa Rumi is the KEY of 17 years ago case.

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Let me Introduce myself as new member (i just know this page lol), i am DC fan since kid, my bod also same as kudo/conan.

 

This is only my Opinion about what happen on that night (Kohji and Amanda case), rum, and his move.

Recently i see a new hint on manga that wakasa shows her memory about the past. *ps sorry for bad english

 

[1] First is, Amanda Hughes. She was a wealthy and had some influence to FBI/CIA as haibara said. As she have influence to FBI/CIA, she must be trust her life to her bodyguard. As a bodyguard, he/she (Asaka) must be tough/skilled as fighter (Fist and Gun). Night before she died, she had afternoon tea with Haneda Kohji, of course in Kohji's room. Amanda room is clean when she found died, different from Kohji Room. Most likely she killed by the Organization. As you know, when they both died, something is left in Kohji's room, The Mascara Mirror has be the one as Evidence "Dying Message" PTON => UMASCARA. You have to remember in the episodes that Haibara's parent said that they both invited on to CARASUMA group as scientist to do some mad project but Atsushi Miyano refused it sice that group had some bad rumours (Manga 1011). At the end, they both agree to join them since Elena Miyano had Pregnancy. At this situation, i think that UMASCARA wasn't dying message to RUM Codename, but it was an Organization/Group Carasuma that responsible to their death. *CARASUMA mentioned as (Carasu means crow/raven in japanese) Crow logo/emblem.

 

[2] Why did the Mascara Mirror in kohji's room? Haneda Kohji's look like is not using mascara. Mascara mentioned in the Mall when conan sees Haibara using some mascara and look like the little girl he found in Sera Masumi's room. So, i describe mascara is the black stripe below the eyes. Compare their eyes (Akai's, Sera's, Marry's and Haneda Kohji's). I Assume the mascara is not belong to Haneda Kohji. It belongs to Amanda Hughes. Why the mascara in Kohji's room? The one who hold that mirror is ASAKA the bodyguard. 

In that case i have 3 conclusion that, Haneda Kohji witnessing some people he recognize from CARASUMA Group do the Assasination of Amanda Hughes by Black Organization so he left dying message (He hold the scissors) then killed by aptx4869, or Amanda ask ASAKA to left her dying message, ASAKA recognize the killer from CARASUMA Group and left dying message in Kohji's room (Fight and Making Haneda Kohji unconscious), organization realized the mess so they kill Haneda Kohji using aptx4869, or woman bodygoard ASAKA is really bad guy codename RUM and do kill Amanda Hughes cleanly + eliminate Haneda Kohji as eyewitness (Just like Shrinking Shinichi Kudo). But my last conclusion can be busted if Wakasa Rumi is Asaka and Have relationship to Haneda Kohji and Amanda Hughes.

 

[3] It seems Black organization might be hunt the bodyguard called asaka. It seems possible because he/she also missing after the incident. Why so? I dont know the reason. But in this timeline, Tsutomu Akai who investigate this case also went missing (Potentially : Dead), Black organization also try to eliminate close relation person like Mary (Thats why her body shrunk as well). Maybe Tsutomu Akai found some clue and chasing Black Organization (Based on His text to His wife, Mary), also protect the bodyguard using witness protection program. If Asaka is really a bad guy from Organization, Asaka must be special agent codename RUM. As GIN mentioned in black porsche 365A that he really dont care about RUM's MISTAKE (RUM Involved in that case), but i dont think ASAKA the Bodyguard is a bad guy. The fact what eyewitness (Someone who asked by Mr Kokuri) said is, The bodyguard called ASAKA is woman and she is the one who held the mascara mirror (Based on Anime 864 ending). Its really a clue that the only woman in rum arc suspect is Wakasa Rumi. Is that she was the Amanda's bodyguard 17 years ago??

 

[4] Wakasa Rumi's memory regretting about Haneda Kohji's death. Why? If she really a bad people, she dont have any reason to regretting someone she killed.  or else She might have relation to Haneda Kohji/Amanda Hughes (Since they both a Pro Shogi Player and a Fans).What is her relationship then? She also have a talk to haneda. Girlfriend maybe? She also have Shogi Pawns and hate the way he (Kohji) choose to die. I dont have any clue for this until next episode, but i assume that Wakasa Rumi is the KEY of 17 years ago case.

 

**

Waiting the Mystery of Scootch's Phone Revealed

Waiting the Conan & Mary First Meet and Talk

Waiting the Offer from Yusaku, Yukiko, Akai to Bourbon

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