Jump to content
Detective Conan World

gg1998

Renowned
  • Content Count

    125
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    2

Posts posted by gg1998


  1. 29 minutes ago, Valentin said:

     

    I wouldn’t give up on that thought. I do think that 浅香 (asaka) includes a possible hint.

     

    As @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote, is principally the opposite of deep:

     

    1:川はここで浅くなっている。

    1: The river has become shallow here.

    -> The river is shallow here.

     

    That’s the prototypical meaning.

     

    There are, however, phrases that transfer this notion to other semantic levels:

     

    2:彼は教師としての経験が浅い

    2: As for him, experience as a teacher is shallow.

    -> He has little experience in teaching.

     

    経験が浅い (experience is shallow) has become a common phrase to express that someone has little experience in something.

     

    The temporal aspect can be made even more apparent:

     

    3:我々は知り合ってからまだ日が浅い

    3: As for us, since knowing each other, the days have still been shallow.

    -> We haven’t known each other for a long time.

    -> We have known each other for a short time.

     

    While the last translation isn’t exactly great English, I hope it clarifies that 日が浅い (days are shallow) signifies a brief time span.

     

    That can also be done more directly:

     

    4:春はまだ浅かった

    4: The spring was still shallow.

    -> The spring was still young.

     

    If not many days have passed after a certain point of time,  can express that something is young.

     

    Regarding , I see one thing standing out: While the character—like @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote as well—generally describes something that you can perceive through the nose, it’s likewise a common abbreviation for 香車 (kyousha) ‘incense chariot’. What makes it so interesting is that this is the full title of the shougi piece lance, which can only move forward.

     

    Though I don’t want to claim that this is the correct interpretation, I do think that 浅香 can be read as a short form of 浅い香車 ‘shallow lance’ and thus as lance with little experience or simply young lance. The lance’s limited mobility could refer to a straightforward assassin that doesn’t hesitate to get the job done, but also to someone who is excessively straightforward due to their lack of experience or their early age (where the former may of course be conditioned by the latter) and makes (unnecessary) mistakes as a result.

     

    Not least because there are several other ways to write the name Asaka, I’m convinced that Aoyama at least wants us to think about his choice of characters and their potential connection to shougi (whether or not they’re merely supposed to be a red herring), so I wanted in any case to point them out. To what extent this can be applied to Rum or others in the frame of a theory—I’ll leave that to you.

    A little thing for your further research, I used Google translate and Wakasa means Youth. So in other words Wakasa and Asaka are interchangeable. Lance can also signify a straight forward person lacking tact and deceit. 


  2. 5 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

     

    I was actually wondering about that, but I don't know—again, I'm waiting for flashbacks to this.

     

    Honestly, though, the ring finger/index finger thing is likely not going to be a determining factor in the determination of Asaka's identity... but even so, what about Rumi's ring finger and her index finger?

     

    EDIT:

    File 980 (Page 15, Panel 6) shows that Rumi's thumbs seem really short (unless we're dealing with a mistake on Gosho's part). The photo of Asaka cuts off at the thumb, so we don't know is Asaka's thumbs are like Rumi's.

     

    It can be if Gosho remains rooted to this policy, but there was one Kid-case file(in DC) where Makoto did the same stuff to grab kid who disguised as Sonoko. So it can be a determining factor and to me also the index finger looks bit shorter than middle finger, though.


  3. 11 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    Still doesn't mean that she had to have been photophobic.

    Not from the picture alone, man. To be honest Law enforcement agencies seriously lack any photographs of Asaka, only that photo was out in the public domain. That's why my assertion, though photophobic might not be the correct word, cautious about disclosing his/her identity. 

     

    14 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

    This has been eating at me since it was posted because something seemed off. I finally did some research myself and realized what it was. The index finger being longer than the ring finger is the standard among women, not men. Men, on the other hand (no pun intended), generally have the ring finger longer than the index (even my own has the ring finger nearly a quarter inch longer by comparison to the index). So, by making the observation that Asaka's index finger is longer than her ring finger, you have given even more indication that she is indeed a woman. Just saying.

     

    Also, something else just occurred to me for which I must appeal to anyone able to read Japanese. Something that might give a clue as to Asaka's identity. Do the Kanji used for the name Asaka have any alternate readings? I just realized it was written with Kanji rather than katakana or hiragana, so alternate readings or pronunciations are a possibility. If anyone can say, it might help.

    I screwed up, sorry for that.


  4. 4 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    That's a very bold claim. For all that we know, people were taking photo of Amanda, and Asaka stepped up to stop them from taking further photos. Just because this obscure photo is shown in the website doesn't mean that it wasn't handpicked for sole reason of being ambiguous enough that Asaka can't be identified.

    Then again, if some people had pictures of Asaka, then they would have uploaded or emailed the stuff to the website. The Law enforcement authorities would have had them and by now would have ordered a look-out notice for Asaka. Nothing of that sorts is happening, hence my bold claim.


  5. 1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

     

    Ah, I see. You think that the assertion made was that just some woman was holding the mirror, and then a separate assertion was made that this woman was Asaka. I'm afraid that's just not it.

     

    Forgive me for bringing this quote up for a third time (must be annoyance-inducing, so I apologize), but it makes it pretty clear:

    File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

    Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

     

    There's no ambiguity here. Asaka was holding the hand mirror. There was no prior assertion to this that "a woman" had been seen with a hand mirror.

     

    According to the culprit from that case (951–953), Hotta had discovered that Asaka had been seen holding a hand mirror. Also according to the culprit, Hotta, separately, concluded that Asaka was a woman:

    File 953, Page 14, Panel 6:

    Masumi: "Hotta also believed that Asaka was a woman..."

     

    As you can see, the assertion that Asaka was the one who was holding the mirror came first, and then came the assertion that Asaka was a woman—the identity of the one holding the mirror was established first, not the gender (you seem to think it was vice versa).

     

    So what's your evidence that a third party was the one holding that mirror, instead? I'd like to get to the bottom of this discussion we're having, on this specific subject, and see if there are any misunderstandings—either on my part or your part, or on both our parts.

    • If without any ambiguity one says Asaka was holding a mirror, then it means that person was able to identify Asaka without a doubt.
    • But the uploader of Kohji case uploads that not a single soul was able to provide any tangible lead to Asaka. If someone saw Asaka with the mirror and was sure of Asaka's identity, then that person would have testified already or the if Hotta was able to get the info then there was no chance that the persistent uploader won't be getting it. So I think nobody stated that they had seen Asaka with a hand mirror, but rather a woman with the hand mirror.
    • If you consider this proposition, Hotta concludes that Asaka was a woman from the picture, then Hotta combines this with the fact that a woman was seen with a hand mirror and the there was a hand-mirror at the crime scene, then he with certainty can utter that Asaka was seen with a hand mirror. But He's inferring it from the data which he has gotten , he didn't get it first-hand.
    • If Amanda's close relatives weren't sure about Asaka's identity then how could a random source was able to identify Asaka? There was no pictures of Asaka, Asaka was photophobic, clearly this is evidence enough that Asaka is very secretive and won't  be roaming around so that third party sources can identify him/her.
    • These are the evidences.

  6. 5 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

     

    I'm saying there was only one account of someone holding a hand mirror, and in that account, the person who was carrying that mirror was Asaka.

     

    File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

    Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

     

    It was not someone else (this "woman" you refer to) holding the mirror. It was Asaka holding the mirror.

    1. All I'm saying is that the woman who held the mirror is said to be Asaka. So two conjoined events here, a woman was holding the mirror and she's said to be Asaka. Now if the second part is unreal then the whole thing gets a new dimension. I've enough evidence to believe that Asaka wasn't that woman. That's why I'm speculating that Asaka wasn't the one who was seen with the mirror.

  7. 7 minutes ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

    There have actually always been a couple things that didn't sit right with me about the APTX-4869, mostly with Haibara herself at the center of it.

     

    1.) In the first episode, when Vodka was about to shoot Shinichi, Gin stopped him because the police might hear the shots and pulled out the container with the drug. If I remember correctly, he described it as a new untraceable poison their scientists had developed. Fast forward to after Haibara has joined Conan, and I'm pretty sure she said that it was not developed as a poison, but she also said she didn't know what its purpose was (please correct me if I'm remembering wrong). There are a couple reasons I struggle with this one in particular. First, if she doesn't know what its purpose was, how does she know it's NOT meant to be an untraceable poison? Second, if she was the scientist working on it (or at least continuing the work on it), how could she NOT know what it's for? In order for a scientist to develop a drug, they must know what it is meant to do so they can figure out what combinations are most likely to achieve that goal. If, for example, I'm going to make a scientist work on a cure for Alzheimer's disease, I'm not going to just throw them in a lab and say, "get to work," without saying what they're supposed to work on. You might as well just throw Vodka in the lab with a chemistry set to mix random chemicals together and see what he comes up with. In short, I just can't believe Haibara didn't know what she was working on, because she would have had to know to do it.

     

    2.) Haibara told Conan that she had to be careful because people from the Organization would know her if they saw her, even in a child's body. At the same time, however, she insists that nobody but her is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869. If nobody knows a drug can physically turn her into a six year old, she should have no reason to worry about it. If I was suddenly turned into a six year old and my mother was unaware of it, I could walk right past her and she would never suspect it was me unless I pointed it out to her; she would just think, "Wow, that kid looks just like my son did 35 years ago!" The reason for this is because, to anyone that is unaware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869, it is impossible for an adult to turn into a child, and Haibara insists that NOBODY knows. In short, if Haibara is afraid she will be recognized while she's in the body I a six year old, then she lied and is aware that somebody knows what the APTX-4869 can do.

     

    It has always been clear that Haibara hasn't told Conan everything, but when considering these things, I only see two possibilities. First, that her lies are pathological and she just isn't capable of fully telling the truth (a very real possibility when you consider her upbringing within the Organization), or second, that the Organization is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869,  took notice of Conan's activities at the Mouri Detective Agency, and Sen Haibara to watch him and gain husband trust with a combination of lies and half-truths. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Black Organization members know of APTX-4869, but definitely the ranking members would. If anyone  can think of another reason Haibara would tell Conan these outright lies, I would love to hear it. I don't want to believe she's a bad guy!

    A great observation, but then we also have to assume one thing more, Vermouth vs Haibara arc was just a setup, if I'm to think of the second option which seems a bit far fetched. BO Jolly well knew about the research and Haibara also knew the purpose of the Drug. But as the Miyano files got burnt down, Haibara screwed up the development of the drug as she wrongly deciphered remains of the research papers of her parents'. So there probably were two drugs back then APTX for killing and SB for the magical cure/blah-blah. Only Rum was authorised to use APTX so Gin never knew that such a drug existed in the first place.


  8. 18 hours ago, Serinox said:

    "Also"? The result of the argument was, that the tap was opened in Amanda's room and the status of the tap in Kouji's room is unknown.

    No. The meaning in it of itself is still debatable ofc, but the meaning doesn't depend on which room it was made in.

    • Typo, so ignore that.
    • Not exactly, then if the dying message was written in Amanda's room, then it means the duo(Amanda and Haneda) were attacked in the same room. The killer got Amanda after subduing Kohji, then drugged him too. Kohji somehow makes the dying message and gets out, because the killer has already left.
    • Kohji dies back in his room. Rum clears the stuff in Amanda's room and leaves alone Kohji's room, I think Rum didn't even noticed the tap. Else he would have switched it off.
    • Now if the duo were fighting off the killer and Asaka didn't come in time for help then it means Asaka was probably bribed. Rum thought of Bribing Asaka and then killing Asaka after the deed is done, to cover his own tracks.
    • Now Rum can get the access in Amanda's room in two ways, by posing as a Bellhop/Room service or by posing as someone known to Amanda. In the first scenario, the dying message wouldn't even be there as Rum would be under the guise of a random bellhop, so the next scenario is more plausible.Now someone who is known to both Amanda and Kohji is a perfect guise for Rum to knock them off. None will be doubting him, thus we were only thinking that Rum's guise was known to only Kohji due to the tap interpretation, but now the guise gets known to both Amanda and Kohji. So Rum was probably a player in that Chess Tournament, who miraculously vanished even before the tournament/his match started.

  9. 9 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    I also thought this was hinting that it was Mary's before(when I supported the "Asaka=Mary" theory), but since that theory has been debunked to me now(not officially ofc), the only way I can see this work is if Mary passed it on to Asaka, who later lent it to Kohji. Since my theory is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard(before Amanda-meeting in Kohji's room), there's the possibility that Asaka was close to Kohji and the Akai family.

     

    To me, similarly to your hunches, the idea that the timing of when the photos was taken is important(meaning that Asaka could have taken the photos before fleeing with the hand-mirror) is off. I don't think those kinds of technicalities will have any significance, since Conan never mentioned or wondered about when and by who the photos(specifically) were taken. I believe that Gosho gave us all the important bits to think about in regards to the uploader(following Gosho's M.O with case exposition), and nothing specific about the photos was questioned(meaning they have less likelihood to play a role in the timing of the events).

     

    I doubt that Asaka didn't have a pocket to put the mirror in when she was fleeing anyway. It makes the most sense that she was seen with the hand-mirror while using it.

    • For a brief moment that also convinced me, but after the the 10 years ago, case came up(Akai family intro case) I also had debunked that theory.
    • About the photos all I can say is that the photos weren't taken in a haste. Small details were also preserved and mentioned. Like state of Amanda's room, the tap, etc.So I think Asaka who was already suspected to be the chief accused wouldn't have had that much of a time in his/her hand.  So yes I agree with you on that point, that Gosho had already given us enough to figure out the id of the uploader, and the photos won't play a major role in the timing of the events.
    • As per my observation regarding Asaka's fingers I'm pretty sure that Asaka had a higher chance of being a man.(Due to the length of the index finger, because Men tend to have longer index fingers.I saw that Gosho doesn't always hold good to 2D:4D ratios,so I'm abandoning that proposition.)
    • Also if Hotta managed to obtain the information that there Asaka was seen with a mirror but the uploader stays silent about it. So two conclusions can be obtained from this a) Uploader knew that Hotta's information was damn wrong, but the uploader being Asaka is quite less likely proposition. b ) The Uploader is that woman who gave Haneda that mirror, who wasn't Asaka.

  10. On 5/16/2017 at 8:09 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

    I didn't even consider the possibility that Gaito could have been referring to a moment before the crime. I think it makes more sense that Asaka would have grabbed the mirror post-Kohji-mortem out of fear of being implicated or because he/she didn't want the real murderer to destroy the clue (figured the mirror was a dying message but not sure what it said?), but I cannot find fault with the possibility you presented. I'll keep it in mind when more details of the case come out.

     

    I do think it was Kohji's mirror though for feelings-based reasons. Haibs said her mother had one of those "put on mascara" mirrors, which Akemi later took possession of. (948.5) Everyone and their ninja-clinging, neck-chopping, tea-drinking mamas knows Gosho is going to make Mary and Elena the sisters who are mothers. I know having hunches based off of throwaway lines is completely bad form, but both moms having the same mirror which was passed to someone they care about is in character for Gosho (reasonably assuming the Haneda family and the Akai family knew each other beforehand).

     

    @DCUniverseAficionado, I noticed how vague Gosho was being with that case. There is no evidence or statements that Hotta Gaito was even at the Kohji crime scene. I feel like if he was then it would have been mentioned. Vodka or the culprit would have said something. I suspect Gaito may have heard this info on Asaka secondhand from someone, but who, if not the website?

    • So are you of the opinion that the mirror which was found in Kohji's room was really Mary's? But all we know is that Shukichi had an admiration for Kohji. Kohji possibly inspired him to the life of Shogi. But then would a rational woman gift her used hand mirror to the shogi hero of her son? I think it was a gift from another woman whom Hotta claims to have seen with the mirror.
    • Or it could be a total bull, cooked up by Hotta. There was no woman with a hand mirror. Hotta invented it to make a grand show out of thin air. BTW when Hotta's performance was mentioned by Vodka Gin termed it as Rum's headache. So there might be a chance that Hotta was there at the Hotel but and saw someone with a hand mirror and now making his castle of lies based on that.

     

    On 5/16/2017 at 4:21 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

     

    File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

    Masumi: "Asaka, the bodyguard who disappeared, was seen holding a small hand mirror..." (the translators can weigh in if the original Japanese, here, doesn't translate into this)

     

    Plus, who says that Hotta, himself, saw that? 

    I don't get what you're saying. My point is that "The Woman holding a hand-mirror, who was also seen in the same Hotel is most probably not Asaka."


  11. 1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

    Yeah, I'd be open to Gaito Hotta's witness seeing Asaka, with the mirror, before the murders.

    It's quite likely that Hotta might have seen a woman with a mirror, but was the woman really Asaka? I do have small proposition about this, though I consider it possible speculation, the only image of Asaka(or claimed image of her's) shows that her index finger is a bit longer than ring finger, so I think it's highly possible that Asaka was a man but Hotta saw someone else with a mirror. That someone(the woman) gave the mirror to Kohji.

     

     

    Untitled.jpg


    • After the heated debate somehow the bottom line came out to be(For now, though I'm rather skeptical) that tap in Amanda's room was also left open.
    • Kohji's room was ransacked.
    • The dying message was found in Kohji's room, hidden behind broken stuff.
    • Does this alter the meaning of the dying message?

  12. 11 hours ago, Serinox said:

    Akai bringing it up doesn't prove a thing. The cases may be similar, but you cannot use it as evidence, that everything back then happened exactly in the same as it did during the case in present day.

     

    Also, just because Conan & Haibara are pretty certainly talking about Amanda's room/tap in that conversation, it doesn't mean that the tap in Koji's room wasn't also found running as well. While the tap running in his room is never mentioned/confirmed in the chapter, it wasn't disconfirmed either.

    I can use it as circumstantial evidence. If the tap in Kohji's bathroom was also left running then only this comparison makes sense. So it confirms that Kohji's bathroom's tap was also left running.

    8 hours ago, Valentin said:

    As a brief supplement to Conan and Haibara’s conversation about the rooms of Amanda Hughes and Kouji Haneda, I took a closer look at those sentences in my copy of Volume 89 and tried to provide a translation as faithful and clear as possible.

     

    1: Haibara

    それより引っかかるのは荒らされたまま放置されたこの部屋…

    [1:それより][2:引っかかるのは][3:荒らされたまま][4:放置された][5:この部屋]…

    [1: more than that] [2: what bothers (me)] [3: in a devastated state] [4: left behind] [5: this room] …

    More than that, what bothers me is this room that was left behind in a devastated state …

     

    2: Haibara

    組織の仕業ならこんな事有り得ない…

    [6:組織の仕業なら][7:こんな事][8:有り得ない]…

    [6: as for the work of the organization] [7: a thing like this] [8: inconceivable] …

    As for the work of the organization, a thing like this is inconceivable …

     

    3: Haibara

    何もなかったかのように立ち去るのが彼らのやり方なのに…

    [9:何もなかったかのように][10:立ち去るのが][11:彼らのやり方][12:なのに]…

    [9: as if nothing had been there] [10: to (stand up and) leave] [11: their way of doing] [12: despite]

    Despite leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing …

     

    4: Haibara

    実際、殺された資産家の部屋はそうだったみたいだし…

    [13:実際]、[14:殺された資産家の部屋は][15:そうだったみたいだし]…

    [13: in fact], [14: the room of the killed wealthy person] [15: seems to have been like that]

    In fact, the room of the killed wealthy person seems to have been like that …

     

    5: Conan

    確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

    [16:確かに][17:洗面所の蛇口の水][18:も][19:出しっ放しだった][20:って書いてある]…

    [16: indeed] [17: the water of the tap of the bathroom] [18: also] [19: was left running] [20: is written]

    It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running 

     

    Someone who talks about A and then about B will use an anaphoric term in the following sentence for referring to whatever was stated last instead of forcing the hearer to guess which one of the previously mentioned things is meant. In “I had a troublesome dog. Then I had a peaceful turtle. That was much better.”, that only refers to the peaceful turtle and not to the troublesome dog that was mentioned before the peaceful turtle. Correspondingly, I can’t think of any reasonable explanation why Haibara should first (Sentence 1) talk about A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) and then (Sentences 2–3) contrast A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) with B (“leaving as if nothing had been is their way of doing”) just to eventually (Sentence 4) utter C (“seems to have been like that”) for referring back not to what was stated immediately before that (“leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing” in Sentences 2–3), but to what was stated at the beginning (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state” in Sentence 1). She is confused by the fact that a room was left in a devastated state although the organization seems to be involved, makes the focus shift by mentioning their usual modus operandi and compares the other room with that (their usual modus operandi). So I agree with Chekhov MacGuffin and Serinox and dare say that every other reading of those words has nothing to do with natural language use.

     

    As for Conan’s reply, I have a minor remark. While it doesn’t change the sense dramatically, I think that the absence of a comma after 確かに (indeed) entails that 確かに (indeed) emphasizes the rest of the sentence instead of directly affirming Sentence 4. To illustrate that, I put indeed after it is; here are the two versions for comparison:

     

    Official Version

    確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

    It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

     

    Alternative Version

    確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

    Indeed, it is written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

     

    I think that, in the latter sentence, Conan would first agree with Haibara explicitly and then mention the rest of his answer to support what she said, whereas, in the first sentence, he would solely emphasize something that supports what she said and might agree only implicitly. Again, the difference wouldn’t be too significant; I just think that the question if Conan agrees with Haibara explicitly or perhaps only implicitly isn’t completely irrelevant either, so I at least wanted to mention it.

     

    I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

    Though I, concur with your translation I do have some issues with your interpretation.[Google translate and Jisho say ; 16 is surely, 17 water of Washroom faucet, 18 is also, 19 reads keeping something turned on, 20 reads It is written.]

    • So I think surely, will be a better substitute than Indeed.
    • The example which you used was an ill constructed one. I'll tell you why, You're dealing with only two propositions and then referring one of them with a hint that one was favoured over the other. That's not the case here.
    • Let's make a better example, B is reading a post that a Budgie owner had posted about how his deceased Budgie had been troublesome.
    • Person A : "The op really had a troublesome Budgie. But in general Budgies aren't troublesome, they're peaceful pets. Wasn't Ms. Amanda's Budgie like that?"
    • Person B : "Indeed/surely, it's written here that the door of the cage had claw marks."
    • So to whom person B is referring, Ms. Amanda's Budgie or OP's budgie?
    • Of course, the Op's budgie. Because here the comparison is between the nature of the Budgies owned by the OP and Ms. Amanda respectively. Person A wonders that why Op's budgie was so troublesome despite Budgies being peaceful pets in general. Person A cites the example of Ms. Amanda's Budgie to ascertain her assertion.
    • Person B concurs and says with a pause(comma means pause, when we read we often don't pause at commas and that's the source of almost half of the misreadings) that it's written here that the cage had claw marks. Person B is referring to the context of OP's Budgie, the pause ensured it. If it was Amanda's Budgie the pause wouldn't even be needed.
    • Don't use wrong examples to draw conclusions, because a counter example is enough to shatter the backbone of your dissertation.

  13. 15 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

    Freaking @Serinox made an appearance to weigh in. You have no standing to argue Japanese with Serinox unless you are secretly Yunnie-chan. (or Abs. I miss Abs. so much ;_; )

     

    The panel said the faucet is running in Amanda's room. It is what it is, unless Gosho overrules it with new info later. Yes, I think it's weird the faucet is running in Amanda's room and not Kohji's. That's why I took special notice, double checked the Japanese source, and why I made that first post saying you and MeiXx were out of line with the facts. For now, we should take the opportunity to figure out how to accommodate this with our theories.

     

    What you seem to be misunderstanding is that the translation is not "the room is perfectly neat and clean". The translation implies the situation in Amanda's room is more like "Amanda just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." It doesn't look like she was attacked, so the room is still orderly. The implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off as if she died naturally. Contrast with Kohji's room where broken stuff littered the ground which was clearly unnatural.

    • I'm not here to argue Japanese with Serinox, I'm here to point out the can of worms which accompany the current interpretation.
    • Okiya Subaru draws parallels between the Kohji case(Not Amanda case) and the current case. When he asks that whether the taps were kept open in the current case or not it proves that in Kohji case the taps were open, and they were opened in Kohji's bathroom. If the taps were opened in Amanda's room such a question wouldn't even be asked in the first place.
    • For the sake of argument let's assume that Amanda's room was the centre of the plot. Kohji was attacked while he was in Amanda's room and the opened faucet proves that he cut the glass over there. Now if Kohji was attacked and then he he cut the mirror. Now Kohji's body showed signs of struggle. So the room had to be in a disarray. So when the perpetrator was cleaning up the room Kohji was busy cutting the mirror. Or the cleanup got completed, the perpetrator had left, Kohji got up from his slumber, starts cutting the glass, feels like "Damn, this room is so clean. So I'll take the mirror with me, I won't even leave behind the scissors. I'll use my extra stamina to pull myself to my own room. Guess what, there won't even be a trace of me dragging my dying self out of this room ans also I won't be calling for help. Ha ha...I'm a Shogi champion bow down before me."  Or Rum comes after Kohji had done the aforementioned stuff, "Ah....what a bother. The dead body just got vanished out of the room. Guess what I'll just clean up the room and I don't care if there's a third party who had moved the corpse of that Shogi guy. It's not like that I had hated him, but I such a tsundere" (Rum strikes a Tatsumaki-pose)
    • Ta-da we have three theories now.

     

    10 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    Or wait until the anime clear things up(I wonder if they have the same debate before they confirm things with Gosho).

    Or just sit on a hunger strike infront of Ghoso's studio.


    1. Haibara was asking Conan if the room which belonged to the wealthy person had similar impression to BO's mode of operation or not?
    2. Conan confirms her statement, then pauses, then says the taps were left running.
    3. Now taps left running can't be an impression of a neat and clean room.
    4. Okiya Subaru asks the Investigating Officer about whether the taps were running in the current case or not? The affirmative answer seemed to have taken him by surprise, he says that it's just like that case.
    5. A corpse with a pair of clenched scissors and taps were running in the bathroom where the corpse was found. This two points at Kohji's case not Amanda's.

  14. 39 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    I'm relying on Spimer's and Gent's words. Spimer confirmed that Haibara never says "just as messy"(but rather is claiming that Amanda's room followed BO's M.O) and Conan says that Kohji's room has the tap open. Gent says that Wakarimashita corrected him and that the end-result is what is now written in Batoto. Looks like you are the one out of the loop.

     

    From the narrative of the case exposition and the "clenched scissor" case development, it makes sense too that Kohji used the tap in his room and that Amanda's room was successfully cleaned(which makes Kohji's death stick out even more). Otherwise Conan would've pondered on why Kohji was in Amanda's room when he cut the mirror.

     

    (Edit: sadly, I rely only on DCW wiki when I want to confirm some trivial info rather than the main plot info, since there's a bit of a bias in stuff like the BO research info).

    You just confirmed what I was going to attempt. I was going to drop a message to Gent and was readying to get screen-shots of our convo for out of the loop people. Looks like you saved my data usage by some MB's. Thanks MTX.


  15. 35 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

    @gg1998, there appears to be a loop you are completely out of.

     

    One, there are no official translations of these chapters until VIZ gets to it a decade from now or whenever that is.

     

    Two, that translation on Batoto was done by fans, and I actually know who these people are. This chapter (948) was done after the DCTP manga CnD. At the time this was going on, replacement scanlators were still trying to work things out. The Clenched Scissors case was translated from Japanese, into Chinese, into Indonesian, and then into English. Yeah. 3 languages before English. Not surprisingly, there were some things that were translated wrongly. (Hell, I am more impressed by how much was correct. The translators are awesome to maintain that level of fidelity after three rounds) But anyway, these errors were discussed extensively on the DCTP spoiler boxes, and elsewhere at the time.  I understand that not everyone got the memo.

     

    Three, in order to keep an accurate record, a page was created on the wiki, and with the help of those who have access to original Japanese scans, Japanese speakers, and others, the correct version of events was described. Most of it was little things, like Amanda being a "wealthy person", not an investor. However the state of Amanda and Kohji's room was incorrectly described. The true state of affairs is that only Kohji's room was messy and showed signs of a struggle; Amanda's was left like she just keeled over and died, and even the faucet was left running in it. So it was Amanda's room had the faucet on. Not Kohji's. (unless it wasn't mentioned by the mystery website maker.)

     

    Four, I highly encourage anyone interested in the Kohji case to check this page out: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Case_from_17_years_ago

    "official" doesn't mean Official. 

    Okiya Subaru mentions in the same chapter with emphasis on whether the taps were running at the crime scene or not? Kohji case was his point of interest and he drew parallels with it. So it's evident enough that Kohji's room was referred not Amanda's.

     


  16. 1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

    There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga. 

     

     

    The official English Translation from Batoto says "That Kohji's sink was running not Amanda's."

     

    2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    "CARASUMA" is the only name that fits with the message completely. The other ones lack letters. "Wakasa Rumi" is most likely just an alias made to look like the dying message, rather than it being what the message was saying.

    Let me give you two examples, so that those two possibilities will also make as much sense as your theory.

    1. I and some other forum posters often refer to you as MTX, now if we had to name you and we could only use letters M,T,X and we made a message MTX it will still direct to you. Though your full username won't be there.
    2. Let's take the example of my username, now my username can also be referred to as g19, if the person didn't have enough time or didn't have enough letters to begin with. We really don't know that whether the dying message was complete or not. We also don't know whether the mirror ran out of characters to construct the whole message.

     

    1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

    There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga. 

     

     

    From the page of the "official" English Translation from batoto, if you have any further queries then this link will help too https://plus.google.com/+ShuichiAkai84/posts/aCgVXipisST

    Conan-proof.jpg


  17. 2 hours ago, Serinox said:

    We can't know that for sure; Shukichi speaks with high respect of Koji and his motto and the way he does it, it seems like the have met in the past and he knew him well. Of course, that's not set in stone, but it is entirely possible that Koji and Shukichi became acquainted some 17-20 years ago when Shukichi was in elementary school and they adopted kind of an mentor/student relationship and that Koji was the one who Shukichi into shogi.

    Still, even if Kohji and Kichi had some sort of kinship, does it imply that Tsutomu-san would be using Kohji(A shogi player) as Amanda's shield against Rum? You might have mistaken my point @Serinox I only implied that the officially Haneda and akai family got together around 10 years ago.

    1 hour ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

    1. It is, the order was at fault perhaps.

    2. The basis, is that it was developed in a 17-20 years of process. It is a mere speculation that a drug was time consuming but became instant years later, hence it truly may be wrong but nonetheless it is an assumption and you don't have to believe it.

    3. You said 'officially', hence some friends of Amanda knows of the existence of Rum and she told him about that fact. Again this is a mere guess.

    4. Because he knew Rum is about to die either ways, weak I know but again only a guess. No concrete evidence based on.

    5. It would indicate that he knew that Asaca worked on her/his own, and he went to the next person he knew.

    6. Because he needed a reliable evidence to leave behind, and not another would be corpse, that is if he did not suspect the lobby workers.

    7. True, again this is a mere theory with no established facts. So it can be criticized, and blamed. However it is an idea whether it is true or not.

    1. There's no order, the glass was cut in Kohji's bathroom. End of the story, period.
    2. Still it's a mere speculation, if you're giving a theory then those stuff can't be used. If you're speculating, then it's fine.
    3. Officially means the Officials of FBI and CIA. You're again assuming Amanda knew about Rum in the first place but we have no evidence to back it up, even if she knew about it and she passed on the info, then during the time of briefing kai and Kir prior to their infiltration, their respective agencies would have given them a small tip about Rum, because that's a vital information. But the discovery of the person named Rum working in Bo, took Akai and Kir by surprise. If they had prior knowledge about Rum then this reaction wouldn't have come into play.
    4. It's a guess so nothing can be said, but quite unlikely.
    5. I don't understand your point.
    6. He was suffering yet had enough stamina to get out of that room, then why he didn't call for help?Mind it ,according to your theory he was attacked, he wrote the dying message, took the mirror also took the scissors, staggered out of the room, went to his room, broke a bunch of stuff to shield the dying message and then died. If he had stamina of doing all these things with a bashed up face and other debilitating injuries, why didn't he call for help?

    @MeiTanteixX WAKASA RUMI, Chikara Katsumata are also viable options along with CARASUMA.


  18. 7 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

    1. Your dwelling on the taps in the bathroom in Kohji's room, don't forget the taps in Amanda's were open as well. 

    2. I'm not inventing facts, I'm merely assuming the prototype had longer time to take effects. I might be wrong, and you might be wrong, it is only up to Gosho to answer it. So don't point fingers where everything we say is also possible ;)

    3. The fact that he mentioned the existence of such name, he knew it would reach the CIA or FBI.

    4. I haven't read according to you, whether Kohji's fingerprints were left or not. Assuming it is as you say, either they were cleaned by Rum. Or he simply didn't touch anything that left his fingerprints (the doorknob was touched by every visitor so his would be missed with, and the taps again may have been erased due to water)

    5. Because she visited him on several occasions.

    While Holmes did say do not invent facts to suit theories, it is necessary to assume many theories and find the most suitable one. So it is not about inventing facts, but assuming the most suitable facts for temporarily uncertain facts :) 

    1) That's the pivotal point of the case. It indicates where the glass was cut in the first place.

    2) Where is the basis of such assumption? You can't assume random things for the benefit of your version.

    3) The question is why would he even know the name in the first place? Why he would even consider that the name is known to FBI and CIA? As far as we know, neither the CIA nor the FBI officially knows the existence of Rum. If your assumption was valid then Akai and/or Kir would have known about the Rum during their time as Fbi(Cia) agents.

    4) If Kohji's fingerprints were cleared by Rum, then it means after Kohji dragged himself out of Amanda's room, Rum came in after that, so absence of Kohji's body would have put him on alert and if he was calm enough to rub-off the prints then why didn't he try to find Kohji and ensured his death.

    5) Why Kohji would be visiting Amanda in the first place? The visit was already done as Amanda already had gone to Kohji's room and came back to her own room. There is no further purpose for them to visit each other again. 

    6) Last but not the least, if Kohji had the strength to get back to his room, write the dying message, smash random things to hide the dying message, but didn't call the hotel lobby for help? I thought Shogi players are smarter than that.

    7) What you're assuming is things which will help your version. You're not building up your theory based on established facts.

     

     

    6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

    nope, it wasn't. Only Kohji's room had the tap open.

    Thx for the one liner, MTX.

     

    5 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

    I just had a thought. Remember that Kohji was associated with the Akai family, and the Akai family patriarch was, in turn, associated with the Black Organization. Imagine this scenario.

     

    Kohji is told by Akai's father that Rum has been sent to kill Amanda before she can deliver the information she has to American authorities. Recognizing that the Organization must be brought down, as well as wanting to protect Amanda's life, Kohji goes do warn her but he doesn't know who Rum is so he can only give her a vague warning that someone called Rum means to kill her. Rum, who had already established a cover as Asaka, hears this warning and decides that he/she must eliminate Kohji before Kohji can figure out that Asaka=Rum and warn Amanda. At this point, Asaka/Rum attacks Kohji first and gives him the prototype APTX after a struggle. Thinking Kohji dead, Asaka/Rum leaves in a hurry to find Amanda, deciding the time is right to make his/her move to kill the would-be informant before any other unforeseen hindrances appear. Kohji knows he's dying and cannot find Amanda before Asaka/Rum does so he uses his last moments before succumbing to the poison to leave a dying message in hopes that Amanda might find him before Asaka/Rum finds her. His message, of course, being "ASACA RUM" to warn Amanda that her trusted bodyguard is actually the ruthless killer bent on destroying her. Alas, either Amanda fails to find Kohji's last message to her or, by the time she finds it, it is too late and Asaka/Rum had already closed in on her.

     

    If you think about it, this scenario answers a lot of questions. Why would Kohji leave a dying message implicating Rum when nobody should even realize Rum exists? Since the message does implicate Rum, it was obviously intended for someone who was aware of Rum and could benefit from the knowledge that Asaka was Rum, but who could that be (I actually have another possible theory on who was the intended recipient of the dying message, which I shall address momentarily)? Why would the middle Akai child have such strong affection toward Kohji if he was nothing but a victim whose murder investigation his father was involved in somehow? So many questions, cleared up by this.

     

    Oh, and regarding how long it takes for APTX to kill, we can use Shinichi's transformation into Conan as a frame of reference. I'm order to revert his body to a childlike state, the poison had to reach and take effect on the majority of the cells in his body. Well, even for someone who was not lucky enough to survive as Conan did, in order to kill them, the poison stil must spread throughout most of the body and have time to complete it's devastating work. For that reason, until we see definitive proof to contrary, it is safe to estimate that death by APTX would take approximately the same amount of time as Conan's transformation. As long as the change took, it is perfectly within reason that Rum could have ave rushed away thinking Kohji dead while Kohji still had time to leave his message.

     

    Now, I mentioned another possible theory about who Kohji's message might have been for if not Amanda. As I mentioned earlier, it is apparent that there are ties between Kohji and the Akai family. If the above theory turns out to be false, meaning it was not Akai Sr. who warned Kohji about Rum in the first place, then perhaps this message was perhaps MEANT for the Akai patriarch, who still already had at least some basic knowledge of the Organization, with the purpose to identify, for the one man who would know what to do with the information, exactly who killed him and Amanda.

     

    Also, I've seen the theory bounced around a lot that Asaka is not Rum but was a legitimate bodyguard who went into hiding after the double murder because he/she was the prime suspect and Vegas ha/she was waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on Rum, and it is now Asaka who keeps posting the information about the case in an attempt to draw Rum out. An interesting theoey, but even aside from the obvious question about the dying message (what could "ASACA RUM" mean if not saying that Asaka is Rum?), there is the question of how Asaka would have obtained law enforcement files on the case to release! Asaka is supposed to be on the run and hiding out from authorities, so how does he/she waltz into one or more law enforcement agencies to get all of the files relating to this unsolved case, in which he/she is the prime suspect? It seems ludicrous. I have another more likely theory on who is releasing the files. What if it is someone who worked on the case in some way? Someone who was at the time with a law enforcement agency? Someone who knew one or both of the victims and wanted to bring down their killer and the Organization he/she represents? In short, for those who don't see where I'm going with this, I think it is Akai's father who keeps leaking the case files online.

     

    Just some thoughts for you guys to mull over. I'd love to hear any reactions to them.

    1. A horrendous mistake you seemed to have made. Akai family got tied with Haneda family after Sukichi was adopted in the haneda family 10 years ago. The Haneda Kohji case happened 17 years ago. At that point of time Akai and Haneda families were unrelated.
    2. So would a CIA agent endanger a random Shogi player of Japan by asking him to prevent a possible top notch killer? I rate Tsutomu-san more rationally. BTW beware, if Subaru san hears that you're making his dad look idiotic, he might snipe out your brains.
    3. Haneda didn't write the dying message after he was drowsed with APTX, because he was already injured and APTX on an injured person invites loss of consciousness. Then the dying message wouldn't have been there. Haneda ran to the bathroom, after getting bashed up, he wrote the dying message, threw the mirror to make sure nothing comes into the assailant's mind. Then Rum breaks in and kills him with APTX.
    4. Not necessarily a person from FBI or CIA. A primary discoverer of the body could have photographed that stuff also. If it was a person from FBI or CIA then he/she would have all the resources to solve this case, he/she won't be so persevere in uploding the case's stuff.

  19. 7 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

    You make possible flaws, however he wan't poisoned before throwing away the stuff. Rather it was after, and don't forget it was 17 years ago when Shiho was 1 year old, so most likely it was a prototype that had longer time to kill. And AGAIN he knew it was Rum because Amanda had slipped the information about Rum's MO (way of killing), perhaps because there was no implication of a force on the body hence he guessed it would be a prototype drug, therefore Rum. In contrast to Asaca who is more aggressive in their way of killing.

    You're the one making possible flawed/contradictory assumptions in the first place.

    1. Why Taps in Kohji's bathroom was opened while they weren't opened in Amanda's bathroom? The answer to this question is that Kohji created his dying message in his bathroom not in Amanda's. That means he was attacked and killed in his room not in Amanda's. 
    2. You're assuming that the prototype took longer time to kill. Where is it verified? Don't invent facts to suit your theory.
    3. For argument's sake let's assume that Amanda told him about Rum, but then according to You logic Asaca was Kohji's killer. Then why did Kohji need to cut the extra "U" in the dying message? If Asaca and Rum were related implicating anyone would be fine as the other can easily be traced, now Kohji used his last strength to implicate a person whose Code name(not even real name) is only known to a select few. How would you like to explain it?
    4. Kohji wasn't wearing gloves, so why his fingerprint wasn't found in the Amanda's room?
    5. Why on the other hand Amanda's fingerprint were found in Kohji's room?

     

×
  • Create New...